Mirrors reflecting mirrors

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40190

    #16
    Re: Mirrors reflecting mirrors

    Originally posted by willow
    ....something that confuses me - I experience a contradiction between 'letting be' and 'investigating?'

    Also, if I sit 'with' - how is this 'not thinking' - or concentrating in some way which inevitably involves thought? :?

    Sorry - this is surely one of those perennial questions which Jundo and Taigu have to keep answering over and over again. ops:

    Gassho

    Willow
    Originally posted by mpdalles
    If there is no start nor end on thinking neither "individual" beings, why do we think as individuals? why do we think we are individuals? who is the "I"? that´s the kind of thinkings that are arising since that zazen...

    Another question, sorry, but If I wasn´t provocating that kind of thoughts during Zazen (... why did those thoughts/questions arose?

    Marcos
    Hi Willow and Marcos,

    When we sit Shikantaza, we may sit in a room that happens to have a table in our line of vision. Our eyes are open, and we see the table as light waves reflected from it enter our eyes. However, in Shikantaza ... we don't start thinking about the table ... thinking "beautiful table, I like it" or "ugly table, I hate it" or "ugly old wooden table" or "ugly old wooden table with a missing leg" or "I must trash this ugly broken table and go shopping for a new table next week." Basically, in Shikantaza ... we see it without particularly trying to notice the table, focus on the table, label the table, think about the table, analyze the table or philosophize about the table ("Is a table with a missing leg still a table? When does a table become a chair?"). It is just there, perhaps not even particularly registering in our conscious awareness ... seen but not noticed.

    In fact, our mind becomes much like a glass mirror which may be reflecting an image of a table ... but the mirror does so without thinking about the table, judging the table, labeling the table as a "broken table" or "good table" or even a "table." The table is just there, perfectly just what it is even if without a leg ... suchness.

    In Shikantaza, we sit in such way with ... not just the table ... but all of the room, our questions, problems, the world, life and all reality. All is just what it are.

    And in doing so, a wonderful miracle may happen ... that you, me, lightwaves, tables, the room, questions, problems, the world, life and all reality may manifest as a Magnificent Whole ... Indra's Net ... Mirrors reflecting Mirrors, all a Great Mirror. Buddha.

    So, stop thinking about chairs, problems and philosophical questions like "what is an 'individual'?" and "why do questions about questions arise?" "if a square is round is it a circle?" and "when is a table a table?" ... put such question down in a moment of Shikantaza ... and ...

    ... just sit the Great Mirror, Great Buddha-Mirror with nothing outside it or apart ... containing mirrors reflecting countless mirrors reflecting countless mirrors. So many question will evaporate or become clear. So many problems may prove to be "non-problems" ... and the broken pieces of life are somehow Wholly Holy Whole. "I" and "individuals" are seen/pierced/lived in new ways. As Dogen said, thus there is "investigated one thousand points ....' and 'to study the self is to forget the self'

    By the way ... I often say "just sit with that". But the "with" in "sit with that" is a bit misleading, as it implies a separation of 'the sitter' and 'the sat'. In fact, in what I am describing, there is just the Sitting-Sits-Sitting.

    Gassho, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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    • Heisoku
      Member
      • Jun 2010
      • 1338

      #17
      Re: Mirrors reflecting mirrors

      A very interesting thread! So thank you Marcos for starting it!

      Sometimes, when I have the time to do nothing.............. I'm afraid I almost always feel I have something more important to do...
      This is a real hill for me!
      However yesterday nothing happened and I didn't 'worry' about it! :shock:
      Heisoku 平 息
      Every day is a journey, and the journey itself is home. (Basho)

      Comment

      • Jinyo
        Member
        • Jan 2012
        • 1957

        #18
        Re: Mirrors reflecting mirrors

        Thanks Jundo - that is very clear. (I do agree that the words 'sit with that' is a little confusing for those of us new to sitting but that
        is now clarified).

        I think what is interesting/challenging is how to integrate the insight of 'wholeness' - which may be oh so fleeting - and sometimes
        can't be experienced/grasped at all in zazen ( though understanding - no such thing as 'bad' zazen as such) - into everyday life. This seems to
        be the greatest challenge of all - how the fruits of practice play out in our relationship to our lived world?

        Gassho

        Willow

        Comment

        • Jundo
          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
          • Apr 2006
          • 40190

          #19
          Re: Mirrors reflecting mirrors

          Originally posted by mpdalles
          If there is no start nor end on thinking neither "individual" beings, why do we think as individuals? why do we think we are individuals? who is the "I"? that´s the kind of thinkings that are arising since that zazen...

          Marcos
          Now, rising from the Zafu cushion ...

          ... it is important to know that there are Buddhist Teachings ... cherished teachings in Zen and all Buddhism, some of the most ancient ... on where the "individual" arises, this sense of "me" and a "small self" somehow apart from the "not myself" world. In fact, the Heart of Buddhist practice ... from Zazen to all the Sutras ... might be said to be focused on both explaining the origins of that "gap" and bridging the gap.

          There is room for some study and philosophizing in Buddhism ... including Zen Buddhism ... so long as one does not just limit oneself to that, trapped in armchair Buddhism and getting lost in mental wheel spinning and "angels on the head of the pin" questions ... and one knows how to sit Zazen dropping all that and thus "bridging the gap" on the Zafu too!

          So, what are the main Buddhist doctrines on the origin of the "I" and the "self/other" divide?

          There is Dependent Co-Origination ...

          viewtopic.php?f=21&t=2929

          Another set of teachings not different from Dependent Co-Origination (just looking at the same process of self/other creation from another angle) is traditional Buddhist psychology, attempting to describe the workings of the dividing, naming, categorizing, judging mind and its creation of our experience of reality, as described here ...

          viewtopic.php?p=47830#p47830

          (The Lankavatara Sutra, recently published in a lovely new translation by the great Red Pine ... although not particularly "easy reading" ... is also pretty much on this very same framework of Buddhist psychology)

          Now both those systems ... about 2000 years old each ... are a bit dated (and have been subject to a great variety of interpretations), but both were certainly on the right track. As a matter of fact, much of what modern science now understands about our mental creation of a sense of "self" as a separate entity (and the workings of the dividing, naming, categorizing, judging mind) seems to be saying much the same on the key points of the process.

          Those are long posts, but most Zen practitioners need some familiarity with the subject matter (and the object matter ... and no subject-object too. Little pun there! :roll: ) Just don't get caught up in "thinking, analyzing, analizing, and philosophizing" too much about these things. Rather ... get back to the cushion and experience.

          By the way, "Indra's Net" can also be viewed as another perspective on this same "process" ... as each jewel in the net can be seen as a separate "individual" ... but a separate "individual" made possible by all the surrounding jewels and circumstances which support it ...and really all just the whole, every jewel supporting and interpenetrating each other and all just the Great Net!

          Gassho, J
          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

          Comment

          • Kyosei
            Member
            • Feb 2012
            • 356

            #20
            Re: Mirrors reflecting mirrors

            Sensei Jundo,

            Thank you SO MUCH for bringing more light to this discussion. After I could see the topic you´ve posted on "The Twelve-Fold Chain" this became a lot more clear for my comprehension. So, thanks, thanks, thanks.
            _/|\_

            Kyōsei

            強 Kyō
            声 Sei

            Namu kie Butsu, Namu kie Ho, Namu kie So.

            Comment

            • Omoi Otoshi
              Member
              • Dec 2010
              • 801

              #21
              Mirrors reflecting mirrors

              Originally posted by chugai
              Just sit , you're going to think like a brook babbles.

              Just sit there, no enlightenment as to your total enlightenment --- nevermind the thinnest shred of delusion convincing you to polish a tile instead.
              Yes!

              And when you are finished with just sitting there, you can always polish a tile, can't you?

              As long as you don't try to turn it into a mirror!

              Just polish. Pure, perfect, whole-hearted polishing in every rubbing motion. No goal. No need for the tile to be something else, something cleaner, more like a mirror. No idea of an end result. Just polishing like there is nothing more to life than polishing. No hurry. No worry. Nothing that needs to be finished. Nothing else that needs to be done. Just the whole world, the whole universe at once, polishing as one. No you. No tile. No polishing. Just a mirror.

              Gassho,
              Pontus
              In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
              you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
              now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
              the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

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              • ghop
                Member
                • Jan 2010
                • 438

                #22
                Re: Mirrors reflecting mirrors

                Amazing stuff here. Thanks all.

                gassho
                Greg

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                • Rev R
                  Member
                  • Jul 2007
                  • 457

                  #23
                  Re: Mirrors reflecting mirrors

                  First thing I thought of.


                  Attached files

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                  • Hoyu
                    Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 2020

                    #24
                    Re: Mirrors reflecting mirrors

                    Originally posted by Rev R
                    First thing I thought of.
                    Nice one! I love the way you think
                    Don't know if you've ever seen this awesome clip? Enjoy..........
                    [youtube] [/youtube]

                    Gassho,
                    Hoyu
                    Ho (Dharma)
                    Yu (Hot Water)

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