SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

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  • michaeljc
    Member
    • May 2011
    • 148

    #31
    Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

    Hi Taigu

    Point taken. But throwing ideas and opinions’ around surely cannot be a bad thing as long as it results in continued discussion as is happening now. I have used riding as an example because in a sense it mimics the problem of establishing an appropriate seat. Many riders go their entire life without achieving this. I was struck by your video talking about establishing the lower body foundation by integrating into the earth – a foundation – and – the upper body growing out of that foundation, independent relaxed and flexible. Look at the rider in the photo; she is not sitting on a stable cushion but rather a moving object that would have any learner rider bouncing right out of the saddle.

    Many riding coaches are forever saying ‘legs back, lean forward, drop the hands’ etc etc. I am great believer in exercises to establish the objective. For example when I am trying to teach the seat I will often say ‘ride like a queen’ then ‘ ride like a sack of potatoes’ then, ‘relax, ride normal’ . These extreme exercises develop feel for what is needed – which is exactly the same as your objective. Another example is that many riders will quickly accept uneven stirrups as normal. Take those stirrups way for half an hour then the moment they take them back up again they feel the unevenness immediately. The point being that we quickly start to accept the incorrect as correct and normal. A ballerina; does she just perform her dance steps? No. She spends 90% of her time performing exercises that are often quite extreme and beyond what she does in performance.

    I truly believed that what I wrote about supported everything that you have said, and still do. I took great attention to your teaching and was immediately struck by the similarity with something I have worked with for over 50 years. That is all.

    Cheers

    M

    Comment

    • Taigu
      Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest
      • Aug 2008
      • 2710

      #32
      Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

      Hi Michael,

      Thank you for taking the point. Rigid sitting is the number one sickness in the Zen world, and although I am sure you are one of the patients, words can have a tremendous influence on people's practice.

      Although I am and absolute and total ignorant as far as Alexander technique is concerned, and could I even dream teaching anybody about it when I follow its principle so seldom and apply them from time to time to save my back?, exageration in the context of sitting is not what we really want, the middle way has nothing to do with sitting in the middle, not too this, not too that...The Middle Way is the natural response of the body-mind, nothing to do with the in between.

      Be well

      gassho


      Taigu

      Comment

      • michaeljc
        Member
        • May 2011
        • 148

        #33
        Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

        I would point out Taigu that when we talk about things like ‘saving the back’ we cannot ignore physiology. The concave loin profile I refer to is not straight, it is concave. Look at the above rider – do you consider her straight? This is the only profile in which the vertebrate can support the weight of the upper body without muscular support. It may sound vulnerable, but it is not. Good riders can ride in this profile all day without back ache. Also - look at the back profile of a weight lifter.The back is very strong in this profile. I still maintain that any posture other than this will result in muscular back ache during prolonged Zazen. By all means correct me if you consider me wrong.

        However, should the sitter have legitimate back problems then this is a totally different scenario. Then, I would expect experimentation would take place to find the best posture, if any is at all possible.

        Kind regards

        Michael

        Comment

        • Omoi Otoshi
          Member
          • Dec 2010
          • 801

          #34
          Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

          Originally posted by michaeljc
          I would point out Taigu that when we talk about things like ‘saving the back’ we cannot ignore physiology. The concave loin profile I refer to is not straight, it is concave. Look at the above rider – do you consider her straight? This is the only profile in which the vertebrate can support the weight of the upper body without muscular support. It may sound vulnerable, but it is not. Good riders can ride in this profile all day without back ache. Also - look at the back profile of a weight lifter.The back is very strong in this profile. I still maintain that any posture other than this will result in muscular back ache during prolonged Zazen. By all means correct me if you consider me wrong.
          From a medical perspective, this is true. But as Taigu has pointed out a few times before, most people are not very good at determining what position their back is in, as he says, the sensory information can't always be trusted. A teacher or someone with knowledge about yoga, orthopedics, or even riding can probably tell when a very unnatural position risks leading to back problems, but it's not the teacher's body, so the teacher can never 'put' the student in the 'correct' position. You, as an experienced rider have an advantage here, in that you are more used to feeling how the body is aligned and you give the best advice you can from your experience, with good intent, and I found what you wrote interesting. And what you write about "riding like a queen" is in my view not totally unlike the Alexander way of allowing the position to expand, growing outwards and upwards. You often hear similar expressions in Yoga, helping you to find a feeling that helps your body find its own position. But at the same time, I see what Taigu means by the danger of giving too direct advice, arching the back this way and that, sitting this way and that, which can be seen as forcing, having a goal, an idea that the body has to be corrected. I think you know Taigu's history and why he is so sensitive in this, feels so passionately about it. I also found his initial response to you a little harsh, but if you know Taigu as Taigu, you also know that this is his way of being as clear as he ever can be about something which is very important to him, and vital to practice as taught here, in our best interest!

          In my view, an experienced sitter is ideally able to let go of forcing a position upon his or her body and just leave the body to adjust itself naturally. But, I suspect that for many sitters, although natural, this doesn't come easily, because we are not used to letting the body do it's own thing. We don't trust it completely. In my opinion, if we are experiencing back pains from sitting, there's is nothing wrong in asking a teacher of their opinion on the position, or taking a picture to help understand how the back is really aligned when it feels a certain way, and from that new perspective try a new feeling in positioning ourselves on the Zafu. After that initial positioning, and perhaps swaying from side to side to help the body find the center of gravity, it's probably best to just completely trust your body to sit you and adjust naturally, letting go of all ideas of the perfect position.

          Please let me know if you think this is completely misunderstood,

          Gassho,
          Pontus
          In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
          you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
          now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
          the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

          Comment

          • michaeljc
            Member
            • May 2011
            • 148

            #35
            Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

            Hi Pontus
            Thanks for the response. Before I leave off I will make 2 final points:

            At no time am I advocating a forced position - the opposite in fact as the s shaped spine profile is the only one where the back muscles can be fully relaxed and we can commit completely to the pillow and completely forget about position.

            Secondly, my use of extremes to establish the natural medium; you have misinterpreted my expression ‘ride like a Queen’. That is an extreme i.e. too straight (the frame which probably lead to Taigu’s back problems). After that I write ‘ ride normal’ The extremes help the student get a feel for the natural medium which is our objective.

            Likewise, after the exercise of bending backwards to the extreme on the pillow I write ‘ rotate slowly foreword with eyes closed searching for the perfect balance’. Searching should naturally lead to swaying.

            I am forcing nothing.

            It would be helpful if postings were read carefully.

            Kind regards

            m

            Comment

            • Omoi Otoshi
              Member
              • Dec 2010
              • 801

              #36
              Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

              Originally posted by michaeljc
              At no time am I advocating a forced position - the opposite in fact as the s shaped spine profile is the only one where the back muscles can be fully relaxed and we can commit completely to the pillow and completely forget about position.
              Yes, I understood that. Just explaning where Taigu is coming from. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear in my post!

              Originally posted by michaeljc
              Secondly, my use of extremes to establish the natural medium; you have misinterpreted my expression ‘ride like a Queen’. That is an extreme i.e. too straight (the frame which probably lead to Taigu’s back problems). After that I write ‘ ride normal’ The extremes help the student get a feel for the natural medium which is our objective.
              ...
              It would be helpful if postings were read carefully.
              Ah! I see that now. ops: (I blame fever! :wink: )
              I do think that is useful, to let the body feel the extremes before letting it do its own balancing. Just like many teachers advocate swaying from side to side in the beginning of Zazen.
              I will read more carefully in the future!

              Thanks M,
              Pontus
              In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
              you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
              now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
              the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

              Comment

              • Taigu
                Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest
                • Aug 2008
                • 2710

                #37
                Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

                Well Pontus, you have red my mind. Your post was excellent. Not because you agree with me, but just because your post is excellent.


                Michael, I am only interested in teaching people that can listen and are ready to look deeply into their belief system.


                Your words ad attitude are crystal clear. You are forcing. My teaching would take you twenty years of undoing, of diligent and daily undoing. Balance is not a result of swinging between extremes.

                I am so sorry for you. And I really mean it.

                Take care

                gassho


                Taigu

                Comment

                • Taigu
                  Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest
                  • Aug 2008
                  • 2710

                  #38
                  Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

                  One more thing, there is nothing a teacher can do with a student practising the "yes, but..." strategy. Endless arguing.We are both loosing our time. Come to Japan one day, and I will show you in deeds and flesh why I say what I say.

                  Take care, Michael

                  gassho


                  Taigu

                  Comment

                  • OcoochZenHermitage
                    Member
                    • Jan 2012
                    • 13

                    #39
                    Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

                    Hi all,

                    I often do kinhin (very slow walking meditation) when my old body is giving me troubles with sitting. It seems to me that too much concern about what position the body is in, is not consistent with "dropping off of body and mind." Perhaps this is also true of mind as well? I do not know. I would like to hear what you think. I envy Carol, here at the retreat, who is immobile like a stone Buddah when she sits for hours. We all do what we can. It is life happening.

                    Sid

                    Comment

                    • Rich
                      Member
                      • Apr 2009
                      • 2614

                      #40
                      Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

                      Originally posted by OcoochZenHermitage
                      Hi all,

                      I often do kinhin (very slow walking meditation) when my old body is giving me troubles with sitting. It seems to me that too much concern about what position the body is in, is not consistent with "dropping off of body and mind." Perhaps this is also true of mind as well? I do not know. I would like to hear what you think. I envy Carol, here at the retreat, who is immobile like a stone Buddah when she sits for hours. We all do what we can. It is life happening.

                      Sid
                      Thank you, Sid. I think this is true of mind as well. I have no control of what pops up but do try to drop it ie just sit. Last nite I was a stone buddha with a moving mind, today mind is not moving so much. We just do the best we can. But I don't really know much more than a millisecond of what's happening.
                      _/_
                      Rich
                      MUHYO
                      無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

                      https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

                      Comment

                      • Omoi Otoshi
                        Member
                        • Dec 2010
                        • 801

                        #41
                        SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

                        Moving Buddha is also Buddha. No need to try to be a statue of Buddha! This is true for both body and mind, in my view and experience.

                        /Pontus
                        In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
                        you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
                        now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
                        the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

                        Comment

                        • michaeljc
                          Member
                          • May 2011
                          • 148

                          #42
                          Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

                          I forgot to mention breathing. Take a look at the posture of opera singers and all the great tenors; both disciplines refer to the diaphragm in a very similar manner
                          m

                          Comment

                          • Rich
                            Member
                            • Apr 2009
                            • 2614

                            #43
                            Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

                            Originally posted by michaeljc
                            I forgot to mention breathing. Take a look at the posture of opera singers and all the great tenors; both disciplines refer to the diaphragm in a very similar manner
                            m
                            Breathing is not a problem, who or what is breathing? Is the problem.
                            _/_
                            Rich
                            MUHYO
                            無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

                            https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

                            Comment

                            • Omoi Otoshi
                              Member
                              • Dec 2010
                              • 801

                              #44
                              SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

                              Non-breathing can be a big problem!
                              In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
                              you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
                              now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
                              the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

                              Comment

                              • Rich
                                Member
                                • Apr 2009
                                • 2614

                                #45
                                Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

                                Originally posted by Omoi Otoshi
                                Non-breathing can be a big problem!
                                that's true unless its time to die :roll: :P
                                _/_
                                Rich
                                MUHYO
                                無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

                                https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

                                Comment

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