SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

[Jundo]

Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

I see sitting in the lotus position as ritual, an important religious ritual that has been transmitted from person to person for thousands of years. Like all rituals it is perfectly useless, until at some point it may not be so useless anymore. Personally, for different reasons and no reason at all, I have chosen not to practice many of the classic Zen rituals. But I am keeping the ritual of the cross legged position. Through it, I feel grounded in my practice and I feel a connection with all those who have walked this path before me, who sat in a similar cross legged fashion.

Hi Pontus,

This is very lovely, and may be actually something of what Master Dogen had in mind. Zazen may not be so much a way of "sitting to someday become a Buddha" ... but a ritual in which, by sitting just as and how a Buddha sits, we thus manifest Buddha! 8) Here is another article by Taigen Leighton ...

Zazen as Enactment Ritual
by
Taigen Dan Leighton
Article for the book, Zen Rituals: Studies of Zen Theory in Practice, edited by Steven Heine and Dale Wright (Oxford University Press, 2008)

Buddhist meditation has commonly been considered an instrumental technique aimed at obtaining a heightened mental or spiritual state, or even as a method for inducing some dramatic "enlightenment" experience. But in some branches of the Zen tradition, zazen (Zen seated meditation) has been seen not as a means to attaining some result, but as a ritual enactment and expression of awakened awareness. This alternate, historically significant approach to Zen meditation and practice has been as a ceremonial, ritual expression whose transformative quality is not based on stages of attainment or meditative prowess.

The Zen ritual enactment approach is most apparent and developed in writings about zazen by the Japanese Soto Zen founder Eihei Dogen ...

...

Dogen directly emphasizes the priority of the actualization of practice expression over doctrinal theory. ... This priority of a teaching's actual performance is reflected, for example, in the somewhat later Japanese Soto Zen prescription, "Dignified manner is Buddha Dharma; decorum is the essential teaching." The point is to enact the meaning of the teachings in actualized practice, and the whole praxis, including meditation, may thus be viewed as ritual, ceremonial expressions of the teaching, rather than as means to discover and attain some understanding of it. Therefore the strong emphasis in much of this approach to Zen training is the mindful and dedicated expression of meditative awareness in everyday activities.

http://www.ancientdragon.org/dharma/art ... ent_ritual

[Taigu]

Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

The idea of a proper posture is insane. This is what i came to discover after 20 years of self inflected pain.
This is basically insane because we are going to sit with a mental picture of what we should be sitting like and we don't actually perceive what really takes place, crooked, we feel staight, upright, we might feel we are leaning or slouching. Misperception runs the show.

My gentle pointing is do with what you can do and allow, make space, invite, open knowing that even from the very start, your sitting is Buddha's sitting.

gassho


Taigu

[Jinyo]

Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

I feel so much better this morning reading all comments.

Omoi - I always appreciate your sensitivity and teaching. I do agree that the Lotus position is an important
religious ritual and would not want to detract from that. Perhaps for those of us who can't reach physically
for it - the Lotus position still exists as an important symbol.

When my thoughts are rambling in zazen -
I sometimes visualize myself in the Lotus position. When healthy/fit I used to do yoga so I guess the position is laid down in
a body/mind memory. I find this very calming and 'inwardly' become that body/mind sitting zazen in the Lotus.

Jundo and Taigu - thank you for your teaching. I will keep returning to your words when in doubt.

and - thankyou for your patience too.

Gassho

Willow

[Omoi Otoshi]

SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

Omoi - I always appreciate your sensitivity and teaching.

Oops! It wasn't my intention to sound like I was teaching... ops:
I'm a beginner like you are, just sharing my thoughts!
Which I do habitually, perhaps a little too often... ops:
Thanks though!

I blame society! And my parents! And my personality!

This is about the ENFP type which Keisey calls champion (yes, I know! ):
"Many champions project their intuitive and perceptive abilities out into the world and are constantly wondering about future possibilities that can improve themselves, others, or situations. This can get champions into trouble if they do not express this to others correctly; or if others or groups take suggestions from champions as criticism or as the champion telling them what to do, instead of viewing it as the offering of an idea."

Take care,
Pontus

[Jinyo]

Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

Hi Pontus - I think we all learn from eachother

According to my type - INFJ - I'm a protector and perfectionist. Very true - which is probably
why I keep getting so phased about 'correct' posture, etc :roll:

Anyway - it's saturday night so I'm going to curl up with something rubbishy on the TV and stop worrying
about trying to do everything right!

Wishing all Treeleafers a relaxed weekend

Gassho

Willow

[Jundo]

Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

Hi,

I posted this today on another thread about posture, but fits here too ...

By the way, when I was sitting at a monastery in China late last year, I did not find that same rigidity of posture one finds in Japan. It is a bit of a stereotype, but generally in the traditional arts, the Japanese are much more fixated than the Chinese on precise, "one size fits all", often rigid, fixed "proper" forms. Here is a video made when I sat in China (at the 6th Ancestors Temple), and you can see the variety of "to each his own" postures between the 4:20 and 8:20 marks here (the film is a little dark at points) ...

[youtube]

[/youtube]

Contrast that from this diagram from the Rinzai-shu official page on sitting posture in Japan ...



Gassho, J

[michaeljc]

Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

I would like to share something here. I have heard many accounts of backache during Zazen. I have never suffered from this – unless I am set up wrong on the cushion. Only of late have I come to realise that the Zazen seat is strikingly similar to the dressage rider’s seat. Because I have done an awful lot of riding I had adopted this seat in Zazen without releasing it. Just as is the case in Zazen the rider’s back will ache if the back profile is not correct. A bad saddle will force the rider into this deficient posture and good saddle into the correct posture. There are a number of factors in riding that apply to Zazen:

The seat is deep and stable. The riders fully commits to the seat i.e. sits ‘into’ the horse

The upper body is independent from the seat and can freely rock in any direction through flexibility. This balance is adjusted and re-established regularly

This seat requires that the hips are rotated forward such that the loins are concave to their natural maximum. I tell students to ‘push your bellybutton towards the horse’s ears’.

The way to set up this posture for Zazen is to:

Ensure the seat bones are on the extreme edge of the cushion

and

After taking up the Zazen posture arch the back and head back to its extreme (you will we looking directly vertical) then, with eyes closed slowly rotate the upper body foreword (rotating the hips and neck) searching for perfect balance without losing the concave profile in the loins. It is then important to relax the shoulders downwards and commit to the seat. You should feel a constant slight forward push on your legs. This is a very stable posture which also eliminates the common feeling of ‘falling backwards’ and backache during sitting. I often repeat exercise once or twice during sitting. Don’t be alarmed if the spine cracks during the exercise. No harm is being done.

If we look at the photo directly above the sitter looks as though he is holding straightness upwards, not committing downwards into the cushion. ie he is not sitting into the horse.

Cheers

m

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

Interesting! Thanks.

/Pontus

[Taigu]

Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

Dear Michael,

I would like to share something here. I have heard many accounts of backache during Zazen. I have never suffered from this – unless I am set up wrong on the cushion. Only of late have I come to realise that the Zazen seat is strikingly similar to the dressage rider’s seat. Because I have done an awful lot of riding I had adopted this seat in Zazen without releasing it. Just as is the case in Zazen the rider’s back will ache if the back profile is not correct. A bad saddle will force the rider into this deficient posture and good saddle into the correct posture. There are a number of factors in riding that apply to Zazen:

The seat is deep and stable. The riders fully commits to the seat i.e. sits ‘into’ the horse

The upper body is independent from the seat and can freely rock in any direction through flexibility. This balance is adjusted and re-established regularly

This seat requires that the hips are rotated forward such that the loins are concave to their natural maximum. I tell students to ‘push your bellybutton towards the horse’s ears’.

The way to set up this posture for Zazen is to:

Ensure the seat bones are on the extreme edge of the cushion

and

After taking up the Zazen posture arch the back and head back to its extreme (you will we looking directly vertical) then, with eyes closed slowly rotate the upper body foreword (rotating the hips and neck) searching for perfect balance without losing the concave profile in the loins. It is then important to relax the shoulders downwards and commit to the seat. You should feel a constant slight forward push on your legs. This is a very stable posture which also eliminates the common feeling of ‘falling backwards’ and backache during sitting. I often repeat exercise once or twice during sitting. Don’t be alarmed if the spine cracks during the exercise. No harm is being done.

If we look at the photo directly above the sitter looks as though he is holding straightness upwards, not committing downwards into the cushion. ie he is not sitting into the horse.

I have the deepest respect for your riding skills and no doubt you are certainly an expert at it.

Nevertheles, the description you are giving apllied to the practice of sitting Zen is extremely off the mark.
One does not sit on the sitting bones on the edge of the cushion.
Rather the cushion is angled as I have shown in one of my vids.
One should never arch the back as described and adjust the so called posture solely relying on faulty sensory appreciation.
One should rather allow the sitting to gradually expand, wishing to go up and not doing.
What you describe here is riddled with end gaining ideas and actions.
One is invited to drop all aims and goals and sitting the body-mind is rather letting the boddy-mind sits us.

All this doe not mean your practice is faulty, it just says that your wording and protocole to sit in a propper way sounds out of tune to my ears.

gassho


Taigu

[michaeljc]

Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

Dear Taigu

Thanks for the response.

It works.

It is just another way of explaining what many sitters do anyway. It is nothing new. Sitting on the edge of the cushion causes it rotate as you describe resulting in the same thing. But I will always maintain that sitters who are getting ache in the back muscles are either too straight or convex. This does not apply to those with chronic back problems of course. Furthermore, I do consider myself well qualified to point out similarities between sitting and the riding riding seat (for the record I am not the only one having done so) They are not ideas. They are very real.

Kind regards

Michael

[michaeljc]

Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

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Attached files

[Taigu]

Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

Hi Michael,

Again I dont question your expertise in the field of riding. i just notice a few words in the vocabulary used to describe your approach applied to sitting Zen that can be percieved as forceful, misleading and carrying too much end gaining and goal orientatedi implications.

One doesn t sit on the very edge of the zafu as you can see on the following vid.
One doesn t have to arch anything or manipulate anything.
Riding is a beautiful sport, almost an art form and require skill and technique, zazen is blossoming when one surrenders and allow shikantaza totake over, when sitting sits you, then you sit.
The natural movement of the ody cannot manifest through postural self arrangement and the likes.

After a mere thirty five years of sitting, I am far from being an expert and an authority.

What I have discovered and learn through countless mistakes and misuses is crystal clear.

What people experienced guided by the follish one eyed guy I am is also very clear.


You may sit as you like, but please reflect on the words you are using, or at least , imagine there can be another way. This sitting issue is a very sensitive issue to me, the chore of my teaching, and I would appreciate if people would pay more attention.

Take great care

Gassho


Taigu

[youtube]http://www.treeleaf.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=4200[/youtube]

[Jundo]

Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

Hey Taigu,

Might we say that, if something works for Michael ... then it works for Michael? If it feels right and balanced when Michael sits, and is comfortable and stable ... then it is right for Michael even if not generally recommended?

I am just raising this because Rev. Mujo, over at Antaiji, has a long post today on whether the thumbs in the Mudra should be centered on the belly button, or can be to the side of the belly button in Zazen, and whether putting the left hand over the right or right hand over the left one way or another raises one shoulder too high ... and I feel that discussion on these questions is just very extreme.

http://antaiji.dogen-zen.de/eng/201203.shtml

I feel it does not really matter so much, and that one can find their own positions (plural and ever changing) that work for one's own body.

What do you feel on that?

Gassho, J

[Taigu]

Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

Hi Bro,

I cannot agree more, what works for Michael is good for him. Splendid rider, very knowledgeable person, dedicated sitter and a very nice man ( we have been in touch for a while), Michael is doing well. I wrote: "you may sit as you like". The problem comes from the wording. That's what I am pointing at. The directions he gives are not in agreement with my experience of sitting and I can easily see how they could lead so many people to a tricky place. These words would take most people into a place where they try to fix and control there sitting, using arching , moving this, adjusting that...

I agree, Muho's considerations about hands are over the top.

Nevertheless, the meaning of sitting upright cannot be grasped by tricks and fixes, potions and lotions. The true meaning of sitting upright is doing itself. Once the rider disappears, the horse of emptiness rides emptiness.
As I wrote so stupidly years ago, the true Mind-seal doesn 't leave a trace on mud, or even water, the true Mind-seal is transmitted through space.

So it does matter as long as I am wishing people not to sit out of the confusion, giving birth to more confusion and pain.

This is my humble take on this. If people cannot take it, fine. Being my student ( that is, surrendering to what the one eyed guy is sometimes surrendering) is one thing and one only: give yourself to I don't know-sitting-wrapped in boundless kesa.

gassho


Taigu

[Shokai]

Re: SPLIT TOPIC: Sitting Posture Posturing

Taigu (in reply to Jundo)wrote;

I agree, Muho's considerations about hands are over the top.

This is quite true but have we not just spent considerable time in this thread on "Just Sitting ?"

I have recently been reading Muho's site and find that he has a unique style of presenting the zazen case.
Although he uses repetition as tool, it does tend to clarify some of the difficulties put forth in zen literature.
And those endless pictures of Sawaki Roshi do touch on humour :roll:

The one thing I did take away from that site is this quote:

Zazen means to sit firmly while something is missing.
- Sawaki Roshi