What does a good teacher see?

[Rimon]

Re: What does a good teacher see?

So difficult not trying o be someone else...

Great talk, Teacher. Thanks for turning the light and stepping aside.

gassho

Rimon

[Omoi Otoshi]

What does a good teacher see?

Just watched the video and l'll sit care free tonight!

It made me think of a stream running through the landscape. Sometimes in runs wide and calm, sometimes narrow and wild. Along the way, it is colored by the landscape it is passing through. Born crystal clear in the mountains, it gets muddy when it passes through farmlands, chalky when it goes through limestone, tinted red when it encounters iron deposits. It doesn't care. Even when muddy, it's still water, doing what water does. Muddy water, clear water, it doesn't matter. It just keeps going, colored by the past, but never looking back. If it meets an obstacle, it doesn't care. It just carries on. It never gives up, never despairs. If an obstacle doesn't yield, it goes around. Finds a way. Where is it going? Wherever the landscape will take it. It doesn't care where. It's care free.

I believe mind can be like water, care free, adaptive, never judging, expecting nothing, just flowing naturally.

[nealc]

Re: What does a good teacher see?

From what I've read, I find Uchiyama's writings to be some of the clearest, precious, and most helpful for me. But my brain is doing its usual dualistic flapping (please excuse me!) in noting the fact that Uchiyama says to stay with a teacher for 3 decades, but Shakyamuni spent many years before his enlightenment searching, learning from, and rejecting teachers, as did Dogen in his pursuit for an answer to his question.. Dogen traveled far for his time, searching, rejecting and disparaging many teachers.

He seems to have spent only 2-3 years with Rujing, who he finally accepted. Moreover Dogen writes that he had an instant face-to-face, finger-to-finger transmission from Rujing at their first meeting. (Moon in a Dewdrop p5). He earlier met teachers, such as the tenzo drying the mushrooms and the tenzo who came to his ship buy mushrooms, whose teachings he made central to his own, but he didn't follow them, though he probably could have (coming in search from Japan to China was a much longer voyage).

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: What does a good teacher see?

Uchiyama Roshi's Opening the hand of thought was the first book I read about Zen and I'm still a great fan of the teachings of Sawaki/Uchiyama.

Didn't Dogen's teachers mostly die on him..? :?

/Pontus

[Risho]

Re: What does a good teacher see?

Thank you for that talk Taigu Sensei

[Seiryu]

Re: What does a good teacher see?

Great talk and teaching Taigu.

Thank you indeed

[Jundo]

Re: What does a good teacher see?

From what I've read, I find Uchiyama's writings to be some of the clearest, precious, and most helpful for me. But my brain is doing its usual dualistic flapping (please excuse me!) in noting the fact that Uchiyama says to stay with a teacher for 3 decades, but Shakyamuni spent many years before his enlightenment searching, learning from, and rejecting teachers, as did Dogen in his pursuit for an answer to his question.. Dogen traveled far for his time, searching, rejecting and disparaging many teachers.

Hi Gongli,

Yes, this is a Koan, is it not? The Koan of moving in life while being ever still ... with no leaving, no coming and thus no need of going. In this world of Samsara, we are very expert at moving, leaving, searching, shopping around for "the thing that will finally make us content and happy", never being quite satisfied for very long. But we sentient beings are not very expert in living a Buddha's Realm of Stillness, Nothing Lacking, Equanimity, Satisfaction Without Price.

Nor expert in living in this world of Samsara Just Nirvana, ALL AT ONCE AS ONE! 8)

Perhaps finding one's One Right Teacher & Path, and staying with that Teacher & Path Perfectly ... beyond teacher/student perfections and imperfections and the inevitable disappointments and dissatisfactions of the path ...

... is something like finding the "right spouse" ... and marrying that person perfectly ... beyond his/her perfections and imperfections and the dissatisfactions of the marriage!

It reminds me of my good friend Bill who has been married 6 times to 6 different women! However his last marriage has now lasted about 25 years! I once asked Bill if he had learned any great lesson and insight to pass on from his experience. He told me that the only thing he had learned is "I shouldn't have married my first 5 wives!" :roll: He also told me, though, that he had also learned in his 6th marriage to be easier going ... overlooking the inevitable rough patches, disagreements, "things that drive one crazy" about the other person, sometime tedium or roving eye, little disappointments and dissatisfactions. Yes, there may be times in any relationship when the chemistry is just not right, when trust has been completely lost, when it is time to head to the door and the divorce lawyer. Some relationships must end. But he had also learned to experience the shining jewel at the heart of the marriage that transcends and enlightens all the seeming flaws and difficulties ... the richer and poorer, sickness and health. This is What Finally is Content and Happy.

Perhaps it is something like that.

Gassho, J (a flawed teacher and imperfect spouse too)

[RichardH]

Re: What does a good teacher see?

From what I've read, I find Uchiyama's writings to be some of the clearest, precious, and most helpful for me. But my brain is doing its usual dualistic flapping (please excuse me!) in noting the fact that Uchiyama says to stay with a teacher for 3 decades, but Shakyamuni spent many years before his enlightenment searching, learning from, and rejecting teachers, as did Dogen in his pursuit for an answer to his question.. Dogen traveled far for his time, searching, rejecting and disparaging many teachers.

Hi Gongli,

Yes, this is a Koan, is it not? The Koan of moving in life while being ever still ... with no leaving, no coming and thus no need of going. In this world of Samsara, we are very expert at moving, leaving, searching, shopping around for "the thing that will finally make us content and happy", never being quite satisfied for very long. But we sentient beings are not very expert in living a Buddha's Realm of Stillness, Nothing Lacking, Equanimity, Satisfaction Without Price.

Nor expert in living in this world of Samsara Just Nirvana, ALL AT ONCE AS ONE! 8)

Perhaps finding one's One Right Teacher & Path, and staying with that Teacher & Path Perfectly ... beyond teacher/student perfections and imperfections and the inevitable disappointments and dissatisfactions of the path ...

... is something like finding the "right spouse" ... and marrying that person perfectly ... beyond his/her perfections and imperfections and the dissatisfactions of the marriage!

It reminds me of my good friend Bill who has been married 6 times to 6 different women! However his last marriage has now lasted about 25 years! I once asked Bill if he had learned any great lesson and insight to pass on from his experience. He told me that the only thing he had learned is "I shouldn't have married my first 5 wives!" :roll: He also told me, though, that he had also learned in his 6th marriage to be easier going ... overlooking the inevitable rough patches, disagreements, "things that drive one crazy" about the other person, sometime tedium or roving eye, little disappointments and dissatisfactions. Yes, there may be times in any relationship when the chemistry is just not right, when trust has been completely lost, when it is time to head to the door and the divorce lawyer. Some relationships must end. But he had also learned to experience the shining jewel at the heart of the marriage that transcends and enlightens all the seeming flaws and difficulties ... the richer and poorer, sickness and health. This is What Finally is Content and Happy.

Perhaps it is something like that.

Gassho, J (a flawed teacher and imperfect spouse too)

Hi Jundo. Doesn't it go both ways? A teacher might also not settle with a given student, and it seems to be a matter of chemistry. I thought I bugged one teacher, then thought nooo I must be paranoid, but was later told by someone in the Sangha that yes Indeed I bugged him. Learned a lot, just the same, but left wondering...

Gassho , Kojip

[Jundo]

Re: What does a good teacher see?

Hey Kojip,

Yes, sometimes the teacher knows that the student should find another teacher! Yes, some students bug the heck out of me (bug beyond bugging or not bugging, of course)! :twisted:

But don't judge by appearances.

Years ago, I tutored some young Japanese lawyer who was heading to study for a year at a law school in America. We met every week, and ... well ... he seemed so cold, unfriendly, uninterested. I actually thought he hated me at one point.

On the last day, I said goodbye and wished him luck (kind of happy to see him go). Suddenly, he started tearing up and sobbing (rare for most Japanese), letting me know how much he had enjoyed our heartfelt (he felt) chats each week ... and that saw me as one of the best friends he had ever had.

So, I am not so fast to judge surface appearances, and my own mental suppositions and paranoia!

Sometimes, by the way, the most difficult teacher/student relationships are the most fruitful in the end (Aren't there a dozen movies about that? "To Sir With Love?" "Good Will Hunting"?)

Gassho, J

[Rich]

Re: What does a good teacher see?

Thanks Jundo and Taigu and all contributors. Don’t. Know what a good teacher sees but have seen good teachers be very present and compassionate .

[Omoi Otoshi]

What does a good teacher see?

Sometimes, by the way, the most difficult teacher/student relationships are the most fruitful in the end

I like this passage from Shunryu Suzuki Roshi's Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind:

“In our scriptures (Samyuktagama Sutra, volume 33), it is said that there are four kinds of horses: excellent ones, good ones, poor ones, and bad ones. The best horse will run slow and fast, right and left, at the driver’s will, before it sees the shadow of the whip; the second best will run as well as the first one does, just before the whip reaches its skin; the third one will run when it feels pain on its body; the fourth will run after the pain penetrates to the marrow of its bones. You can imagine how difficult it is for the fourth one to learn how to run!

When we hear this story, almost all of us want to be the best horse. If it is impossible to be the best one, we want to be the second best. This is, I think, the usual understanding of this story, and of Zen. You may think that when you sit in zazen you will find out whether you are one of the best horses or one of the worst ones. Here, however, there is a misunderstanding of Zen. If you think the aim of Zen practice is to train you to become one of the best horses, you will have a big problem. This is not the right understanding. If you practice Zen in the right way it does not matter whether you are the best horse or the worst one. When you consider the mercy of Buddha, how do you think Buddha will feel about the four kinds of horses? He will have more sympathy for the worst one than for the best one.

When you are determined to practice zazen with the great mind of Buddha, you will find the worst horse is the most valuable one. In your very imperfections you will find the basis for your firm, way-seeking mind. Those who can sit perfectly physically usually take more time to obtain the true way of Zen, the actual feeling of Zen, the marrow of Zen. But those who find great difficulties in practicing Zen will find more meaning in it. So I think that sometimes the best horse may be the worst horse, and the worst horse can be the best one.”

[Kaishin]

Re: What does a good teacher see?

Thank you for the (always) timely video, Taigu. I will have to bookmark and watch frequently!

_/_

[Heisoku]

Re: What does a good teacher see?

Thank you Taigu, you have returned me to something still central in my life and practice.

I find and have found it is so hard to balance this 'carefreeness' with our great 'human doubt' (about everything! past and future). So is it not here that we need to have a carefree faith? A faith that in letting go we are open to something different that we are not usually allowing to potentiate in our lives. A faith that is not desirous or grasping but is more like a trust that we will be nurtured...like a child.
As we get older our horizons in life are not as wide as they once were but that shouldn't diminish our capacity to have this 'trust/faith' that our practice nurtures. Perhaps this is when we get to know the depth of our own practice? But as a fellow traveller once remarked you don't stop because you just never know what is around the next bend!

Sorry about my ramble but these issues have been on my mind both as present concerns and a past memory that has been jolted out of the blue like an old forgotten friend.

[Jundo]

Re: What does a good teacher see?

Hi,

This whole thread led me to recall a section at the start of the Lankavatara Sutra in which a student, Mahamati, asks Buddha ... all at once ... 108 amazing questions.

The questions cover everything and the kitchen sink, much as a child might ask ... things like: "Why is there wind and why clouds in the sky?" "Where do food and drink come from?" "Why are there male and female trees?" "how many grams in an ounce?" (in Red Pine's recent translation)

... or students in a Zen forum ... "How many kinds of liberation are there?" "How is thinking purified" "If we shouldn't eat meat, why do carnivorous animals exist?"

And among these many questions are ... "how do meditation masters teach? What kind of people do they train? Why do some adepts regress, why do some advance?"

The Buddha responds to this last one:

"A statement about disciples is about no disciples. A statement about masters is about no masters."

(D.T.Suzuki has this as "A statement concerning disciples and masters is no statement concerning disciples or masters")

Same with advancing and regressing and all the rest. As a matter of fact, the Buddha responds to all the questions this way ... that a question about 'wind, clouds, sky, food, drink, trees, ounces, liberation, purity, thinking, meat, kitchen sinks etc.' is about no 'wind, clouds, sky, food, drink, trees, ounces, liberation, purity, thinking, meat, kitchen sinks etc.' :shock:

He concludes, "A statement about words is about no words." Suzuki does not have the line, but his version might then be "A statement about statements is no statement." 8)

Perhaps the best response.

Gassho, J

[Jinyo]

Re: What does a good teacher see?

.....so a statement about knowledge is no knowledge :?:

gassho

Willow