What does a good teacher see?

[RichardH]

I've had some experience with different teachers in different Buddhist traditions. Some teachers seem to see wisdom in their students, and some seem to see just a lack of wisdom in the student that they themselves have. It seems to me that a mark of a good teacher is that he/she sees the wisdom. ...and I have found that there is a huge difference in my own quality of practice depending on these different teacher experiences. So, my question for formal students here at Treeleaf, informal practitioners, and teachers is..... What does a good teacher see?

Thanks.

[Taigu]

Re: What does a good teacher see?

None of your business would be my first take on your question :mrgreen:

Behind this apparent stupid joke lies an absolute truth: we are so busy with what we aren't and what we don't have (I am no exception by far :roll: ). Zen is precisely and exercise of great poverty, rather than chasing other people's tails and tales, we merely turn the light in and do the backward step, which is exactly the opposite of what you ask here.Then, the question rephrased would be: What do I see? Who is seing now? Is this seperate from that?

I am sure that your experiences are very interesting and they make a nice collection of memories that you can wear like a neckless of beautiful beads...But all this is irrelevant in front of this moment, now.

This collection I also have is a bit like a photo album, quite heavy memorabilia, enjoyable to flick through, and a definitive proof that I am solid, I exist, I can judge, I have an opinion, I have been there...
Once closed, the book vanishes into thin air and our eyes may open on something so vast and fresh and free.

Thank you for your question.


gassho


Taigu

[Jundo]

Re: What does a good teacher see?

Hi,

I just happened to re-read this old essay, below, by the late, great Uchiyama Roshi (translated by Muho at Antaiji). I will post a bit of that here ... He is writing for folks who wish to ordain as priests, but it applies to any Zen student really.

I think there is a little more to it than what the essay says ... such as avoiding the real charlatans and scoundrels (and there are many around) and, after a time, making sure that there is a real resonance (between teacher and student and the flavor of the teachings being taught in that place), but Uchiyama Roshi's point is absolutely vital. The real "make or break" in the relationship is not the teacher, but the student ... for the student is the student's ultimate and true teacher. Teachers really can't teach anything in Zen practice. I sometimes write, comparing Zen practice to learning to sail and the teacher to an experienced old salt who can show one how to read a compass, the basic ropes and how to tie and untie some knots ... but then you must do your own sailing:

... each sailor must truly do most of the hard work by herself with "her self" ... just the "me myself and I" alone on the open ocean. Nobody can do your sailing for you, nobody can tie and untie the knots for you ... all they can be is a wise voice to point out a good way and show ya a couple of tricks.

... eventually, the teacher just becomes a good compass, and the words of Buddhist Teachings are good charts ... something that any good sailor, even the most independent, will keep close by on the whole trip to show where the channel is, the hidden icebergs in the fog, the strong currents ...

For someone who has aroused this mind and aspires to practice the way, what is important is to first of all find a good master and look for a good place for practice. In the old days, the practicing monks would put on their straw hats and straw sandals to travel through the whole country in search of a good master and place of practice. Today it is easier to get informations: Collect and check them and decided for a master and community that seems suitable to you.

You should not forget though that to practice the Buddha way means to let go off the self and practice egolessness. To let go off the self and practice egolessness again means to let go off the measuring stick that we are always carrying around with us in our brains. For this, you must follow the teaching of the master and the rules of the place of practice that you have decided for loyally, without stating your own preferences or judgements of good and bad. It is important to first sit through silently in one place for at least ten years.

If, on the other hand, you start to judge the good and bad sides of your master or the place of practice before the first ten years have passed, and you start to think that maybe there is a better master or place somewhere else and go look for it - then you are just following the measuring stick of your own ego, which has absolutely nothing to do with practicing the Buddha way.

Right from the start you have to know clearly that no master is perfect: Any master is just a human being. What is important is your own practice, which has to consist of following the imperfect master as perfectly as possible. If you follow your master in this way, than this practice is the basis on which you can follow yourself.

That is why Dogen Zenji says:

To follow the Buddha way means to follow yourself. [Genjokoan]

Following the master, following the sutras - all this means to follow oneself. The sutras are an expression of yourself. The master is YOUR master. When you travel far and wide to meet with masters, that means that you travel far and wide to meet with yourself. When you pick a hundred weeds, you are picking yourself a hundred times. And when you climb ten thousand trees, you are climbing yourself for a ten thousand times. Understand that when you practice in this way, you are practicing yourself. Practicing and understanding thus, you will let go of yourself and get a real taste of yourself for the first time. [Jisho-zanmai]

It is often said that for practicing Zen it is important to find a master - but who decides what a true master is in the first place? Don't you make that decision with the measurement stick of your thoughts (that is: your ego)? As long as you look for the master outside of your own practice, you will only extend your own ego. The master does not exist outside of yourself: the practice of zazen, in which the self becomes the self is the master. That means zazen in which you really let go your thoughts.

Does that mean that it is enough to practice zazen alone without a master at all? No, certainly not. Dogen Zenji himself says in the Jisho-zanmai, just after the quote above:

When you hear that you get a taste of yourself and awake to yourself through yourself, you might jump to the conclusion that you should practice alone, all for yourself, without having a master point the way out for you. That is a big mistake. To think that you can liberate yourself without a master is a heretic opinion that can be traced back to the naturalistic school of philosophy in India.

When you practice all for yourself without a master, you will end up just doing whatever comes into your mind. But that has nothing to do with practicing Buddhism. After all, it is absolutely necessary to first find a good master and to follow him. Fortunately, there are still masters in Japan that transmit the Buddha-Dharma correctly in the form of zazen. Follow such a master without complaining and sit silently for at least ten years. Then, after ten years, sit for another ten years. And then, after twenty years, sit anew for another ten years. If you sit like this throughout thirty years, you will gain a good view over the landscape of zazen - and that means also a good view of the landscape of your own life. Of course that does not mean that thus your practice comes to an end - practice always has to be the practice of your whole life.

http://antaiji.dogen-zen.de/eng/kosho-u ... monk.shtml

[Taigu]

Re: What does a good teacher see?

Hi Kojip, just a vid I have just done for you-me-everybody...

take care


gassho

( by future, I meant past :roll: :lol: ... anyway)


T.

[youtube]

[/youtube]

[Ryumon]

Re: What does a good teacher see?

"...don't worry about the future."

In many ways, I don't. But in other ways, I can't ignore it. I'm 52 years old, and a freelancer, and I have to plan for my retirement. I truly don't want to end up being one of those old people who has to eat cat food to survive, so in the past couple of years - and even more so now that I am living on my own - I've been paying a lot of attention to socking away money so I'll be able to live until... whenever.

So how can I reconcile that with not worrying about the future?

[Taigu]

Re: What does a good teacher see?

In many ways, we are sharing the same fate. I am now in the process of loosing most of my job which could make living in Japan very tricky. There is a clear line between the fear of tomorrow and the positive action of today. To be aware of the risks is perfectly ok. What starts to be painful is when thoughts of gloomy future and dark fantaisy whirl around and are seen as truth itself. One can be responsable, take action and be careful without getting irrational. I have some interesting physical symptoms due to stress, but my mind is most of the time OK. My job is to bring it back home through sitting and questionning the reality of my thoughts.

gassho


Taigu

[Ryumon]

Re: What does a good teacher see?

There is a clear line between the fear of tomorrow and the positive action of today.

I would say that line is very fine, and often hard to perceive. And I guess much of what we have to do is balance ourselves on the tightrope that separates now from the future...

[Jinyo]

Re: What does a good teacher see?

Thanks for that question - and Taigu and Jundo for your thoughts - I hesitate to 'write' answers because
I'm not sure you are trying to give definitive answers.

I think I might run a mile if I thought a teacher was seeing the 'wisdom' in me. Encouragement is good - but I know
how easily my flimsy ego gets 'puffed up'. I have also learnt from the limited/minimal contact I have had with the teaching
on treeleaf that I find this style of teaching hard. Hard on my ego. So often I want to leap in with - 'well that's a bit harsh' -
or 'can we give the binary opposites a rest - it's not helping.' ...... But that's the point. I can see how conditioned my mind
is to work in a certain way.

The mind working .... therein lies the problem. I come here to learn how to stop my mind overworking all this stuff.

I would think an 'imperfect' master/teacher is the only kind of teacher to seek. We learn from the 'knocks', the 'flaws' because this is also our
own mind. The light shining through imperfection - that gives me hope.

So we all walk the same tight-rope - fear of the future - anything can happen in the future - easy as we get older/sicker/financially poorer to fill
this 'mental space' with fearful fantasies. Zazen may not help us with our plans - we have to make plans - but how good to have a space that can be free from
paralyzing thought - if only for a little while - not as an escape - something tangible.

My understanding of this is of course imperfect - forgive any rambling.

Gassho

Willow

[Myozan Kodo]

Re: What does a good teacher see?

It seems to me an attitude of utter freedom, but not foolishness. We must process the karma of the past and plan for the future, but with the attitude Taigu talks about. It is our state of mind in the only moment that exists that matters: the present moment. Still, we need not be fools in this present. If we know a storm is coming, we calmly batten down the hatches.
Thanks Taigu,
Gassho

[Taigu]

Re: What does a good teacher see?

Willow,

Thank you for your "ramblings" mine are often very dull and poor :?

You are right, zazen is useless. There is no way it can be of any help. Cannot give you a job, a beloved, a reason to be.

Zazen is useless, an therefore, boundless. So... breath of fresh air. thoughts seen as they are:clouds. Me-you as I am: just a dream.

And back to this.Bus: Train. People. Shopping. Cleaning...looks solid?

Clouds.


Clouds, too.


Just looking more real. Don't they?

The very place though, the place where things and people dance. The very merging of absolute and relative. The working place of Bodhisattvas.

Clouds and yet not.

Real and yet clouds.

Cloud-real place where the only thing is....................be


In gratitude for your teaching


T.

[RichardH]

Re: What does a good teacher see?

Thank you for these responses, and thank you Taigu and Jundo. Taigu.... your video talk touches where the OP is coming from directly. It amazes me how in the morning there can be carefree moment to moment .... .... and then who knows why, some obscure karmic button gets pushed or something.... and it is anything but carefree. The thread in the Mala can seem like braided steel sometimes. I know that like Jundo says, we are our own teachers, and certainly I don't need any more theory... I mean I can talk and sound very good :roll: . But, I also can't do this alone, maybe alone in the woods in a kuti, but not alone in the world living a life of responsibilities, I need Sangha.



Gassho Kojip

[Taigu]

Re: What does a good teacher see?

We all need a sangha.
Thank you so much for your question and confusion: they are nothing but mine too.

Take care.


T.

[Myoshin]

Re: What does a good teacher see?

Taigu,

Thank you for your video, the way you explain laughing makes me laugh (not in a bad sense) like a sunshine , it's contageous but verry deep
Beautiful sentence carefreeness it's not careless

deep gassho

Yang Hsin

[Shokai]

Re: What does a good teacher see?

Thank you Kojip, Kirk , Willow, Taigu, Jundo and David; for the richness of the mental images you all conjured.

I recall the first time I flew in an airplane (not that i have flown in to many other objects :lol: ) and looking out the window at the clouds, got the feeling that one could step out and walk on them. Then you recycle the thought and imagine falling through the mist and out the bottom side of the cloud and pretty soon, splat! :shock: ; you'd land on the surface of the earth. Life is a bit like that. We imagine things we can do and then either do them or think of a good reason not to try. And, hey, the cat food doesn't taste all that bad; especially after the cat dies, there's all the more for you!!

I received a quote from HHDL this morning:

To help us bring benefit to others through our words and actions, it is useful to cultivate an attitude of sympathetic joy in others’ achievements and good fortune. This attitude is a powerful antidote against envy, which is not only a source of unnecessary suffering on the individual level but also an obstacle to our ability to reach out and engage with others.

have to run now and clear some other of my sub-conscious blocks.
take care y'all, eh?

[Omoi Otoshi]

What does a good teacher see?

I am now in the process of loosing most of my job which could make living in Japan very tricky.

When I was younger I was once stranded in a foreign country with no money. I couldn't get a job. I was eating pasta with tomato sauce every day and I would lose my apartment in a few days. And I felt alone in the world. I remember the stress, the sleepless nights, the growing desperation.

Now, in retrospect, I'm glad I had that experience. It has helped me to be more empathic towards people that do not have the same safety nets and material resources that I now have. Maybe it made me more understanding, more compassionate, I don't know. When I look back, it was an important scene in the movie about my life, with its ups and downs. It taught me some very valuable lessons. I didn't know it at the time, but it was practice.

But in our delusion, we are never satisfied... Now, when I have a house, a well paid job, a wife, a kid, a dog, security, I often long for the days when I was poor and alone, but free as the bird, with no responsabilities, living from day to day, not knowing what the future would bring... Two different lives, two aspects of dukkha.

When we see clearly, we are always completely free, always completely secure. I find Zazen to be a useful reminder of that. But sometimes the clouds are very real and very black, even though we know that there is a perfect blue sky behind them.

I appreciate your honesty Taigu and I thank you for sharing. That is teaching too. There should be no need for playing charades, not among friends.

I may not be a very good student, but I want to say that I really appreciate having you and Jundo as teachers. And I'm thankful for having a Sangha.

Thank you,
Pontus