Human Route By Zen Master Seung Sahn

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Human Route By Zen Master Seung Sahn

Ah, thank you!
I really like the word confidence!
I will try to remember to use "trust" instead of "faith" when speaking about the faith we need to get involved in buddhist practice, and confidence meaning faith attained from knowing through experience. Conviction has other associations for me, like being falsely convinced about something although it is clear that it isn't true, ie delusion. Personally I'm also not very fond of "spiritual" and "meditation" because of their New Age associations. The meanings of words are indeed like clouds drifting across the sky. Even more so with words like "buddha", "enlightenment" or "truth", their meanings shifting from moment to moment before our eyes, according to our current state and understanding.

/Pontus

[Jinyo]

Re: Human Route By Zen Master Seung Sahn

have just lost my reply - apolagies if this gets printed twice.

Rahula mentions the word 'saddha' - which he translates as 'confidence' born out of conviction - a form of faith - but he distances from the notion
of faith/belief as understood in most religions.

He goes on to write that faith (understood as conviction) comes through seeing and knowing - 'seeing through knowledge or wisdom' - not 'believing
through faith.'

The teaching seems to be that it's fine to say one has faith but not to make it into an 'absolute Truth' that is imposed on others.

I think 'faith' is a gentle sounding word - 'conviction' sounds more strident - so no harm is re-claiming 'faith' for personal use.

Gassho

Willow

[RichardH]

Re: Human Route By Zen Master Seung Sahn

"Faith" can sure carry heavy associations for some.. My relationship with that word has changed over time, as it has with the word "religion". It isn't uncommon to meet people who reject the word "religion" because of the same associations as "faith", and who prefer to speak of having a "spiritual" practice rather than a religious one . But then for others "Spiritual" has taken on a wishy washy New-Age association... on it goes. I can only speak to how a word sounds to me. For a teacher with the responsibilities of a teacher, it must be a different matter altogether.

[Kaishin]

Re: Human Route By Zen Master Seung Sahn

Thank you for your post, Jundo. I like your trust & dedication phrasing... you are right that "faith" is a dangerous word.

[Omoi Otoshi]

Human Route By Zen Master Seung Sahn

Thank you Rev Jundo,

Gassho,
/Pontus

[Jundo]

Re: Human Route By Zen Master Seung Sahn

Hi,

I believe that this Way requires Faith and Trust of various kinds ...

One is the Faith of a newcomer. I believe that starting off in Buddhist practice takes a certain amount of "trust & dedication" (a term I actually prefer to "faith" because of all the baggage that "faith" carries for many folks coming out of a Judeo-Christian background). At the outset, one has to trust that there is something to what our practice and philosophy is about, because one yet has no personal experience and must just go on the assumption that the teachings and teachers and books are reliable.

We need the same faith the first time we try anything without personal experience. Even a cake recipe from a book requires a certain trust in the recipe and the book's authors, although sooner or later that recipe must prove itself in the real baking. Same with these Practices and Teachings, which require some trust, effort and open-mindedness until actually proven in our lives. The Buddha said as much in many of the oldest Suttas.

Another "Trust" that is at the heart of this Buddhist Way I sometimes call "Gratitude Trust & A Willingness to Yield." We yield to life, trust life, are at one with life (or the "universe" or "reality" or whatever you want to call it) without too much worry about what that self/life/universe/reality actually is or why it is. It is a little like jumping into a river and letting the water carry one ... totally merging into the current and flowing ... without too much worry about where its headwaters are found or where it spills out. We just know there is a river, and we trust that ... embrace the river profoundly. I sometimes compare this to a newborn baby who trusts its mother even without knowing her whole life story, without fully comprehending much at all, without even knowing what is "mama" (Something gives us life, miracle of miracles, and sticks food in our mouths ... and that is enough for me!).

Folks sometimes think that Zen Practice will give them "all the answers" and the "Meaning of Life"!

And IT WILL! ALL THE MEANING OF LIFE! However, those answers and meanings may not be necessarily what folks were anticipating and envisioning. The Buddha, in many of the old Suttas, avoided to answer some BIG questions (perhaps because he did not know, perhaps because it was not relevant to him) ... focusing instead on answers to human suffering and lack of Wholeness. I once wrote this ...

Our Practice provides some very specific (and wonderful) answers to some 'big questions'. For example, Buddhism provides very clear guidance for and understanding of the origins of human suffering in this life. The "Four Noble Truths", for example, provide a formula that effectively describes the sickness and provides the medicine for its treatment or cure. (More about that here: http://www.treeleaf.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=2942).

Our Practice provides some very wonderful answers to other 'big questions' by instructing us to drop the questions as meaningless. Some questions are as pointless as our asking 'how many angels can gather on the head of a pin' or 'what color are the rabbits that live on the moon'. ...

Hand in hand with the above, many questions we regularly ask may just be phrased poorly, biased by our narrow, anthropocentric human understanding. ... When we change the way the question is asked, answers begin to present themselves (that whole "life and death" thing may be an example!) .... Hitting the "reset button' on so many of our misguided questions are what most of those old Koans are on about, by the way.

And sometimes, Buddhism provides no answer to some 'big questions' ... although that is often a kind of 'answer' too! ...

So, my response for today: Sometimes YES! Sometimes NO! Sometimes WHAT QUESTION?!?!

Gassho, J

[RichardH]

Re: Human Route By Zen Master Seung Sahn

One word we don't hear a lot of in Buddhism is Faith. Not faith in the sense of having faith in something, but faith in the sense of resting with nothing, being suspended without "Mind" or "Self" or anything at all to hold. There can almost be a panic, a scramble, to find some principle to hold, but once the grasping and reaching wind down and subside, there is the ordinary solid ground. My favourite Image of the Buddha is the Earth Touching Mudra, where he reaches down and touches the solid ordinary earth...... calls the Earth to witness. Just like that.

Anyway.. been on a posting roll here of late.... but I just wanted to say that. It is very beautiful and reassuring image.

Thanks for this.
Just like Willow, I have also had a strong antipathy against words like faith. It's only recently that I have found a meaning in this word. We are sometimes told to let go, put down, surrender. But if we feel that we are hanging from a cliff, holding on only to a small branch, and don't have great faith, there will be panic and frantic clinging, because beneath us is the certain death of our ego. In this situation, if someone tells us to just let go, we won't listen. So we have to find ways to build that faith. Personally, I have to know, confirm for myself, realize completely, that there is nowhere to fall, before I can let go. In this sense, I'm a control freak. Maybe we all take different paths, but I would say that by simple practice we can get an intuitive feeling of emptiness, the true nature of reality, and of our own nature. For some, maybe this is enough to have great faith? In Shikantaza, we may sometimes get a glimpse of the emptiness of reality and our true/original/buddha nature first hand. In that moment, I have great faith. But in the next moment, I am still hanging from a branch, refusing to let go. Maybe one day, there will be faith great enough to completely let go in every moment, in every situation in life, great faith always arriving. Then there will be no letting go, because I will not be holding on to anything. But in this moment I can't force myself to have faith, I can only practice. And I suspect that without any faith I wouldn't be practicing. In practice there is already enlightenment. If great faith is not arriving in this moment, that's fine. Ignorance is just buddha nature and we are already Buddha. In this I have faith.

Sorry for lack of clarity... :roll: ops:

/Pontus

That sounds pretty clear. I have faith too. When I first took Refuge (too long ago ops I made a little note and sealed it with wax. it said....

"Perfect Tathagata, Beautiful Tathagata, I open my heart to your blessing, I open my mind to your Dharma, I have deep faith in your way"

Who was this addressed to? .....none other than this mind, but the intention and aspiration was real.


Of course this ain't the kind of thing for everyone.

[RichardH]

Re: Human Route By Zen Master Seung Sahn

Kojip - a powerful and reassuring image.

I had originally written I had 'faith' that the noise would recede - then deleted the word 'faith'. I'm not sure why
- some discomfort in using the word faith.

Anyhow - your words clarified what I was struggling to express - and helped untie a knot of confusion.

Gassho,

Willow

Gassho, Willow. Glad the words coming off this keyboard aren't all just chatter in the aether, and can be useful sometimes..

Gassho.

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Human Route By Zen Master Seung Sahn

One word we don't hear a lot of in Buddhism is Faith. Not faith in the sense of having faith in something, but faith in the sense of resting with nothing, being suspended without "Mind" or "Self" or anything at all to hold. There can almost be a panic, a scramble, to find some principle to hold, but once the grasping and reaching wind down and subside, there is the ordinary solid ground. My favourite Image of the Buddha is the Earth Touching Mudra, where he reaches down and touches the solid ordinary earth...... calls the Earth to witness. Just like that.

Anyway.. been on a posting roll here of late.... but I just wanted to say that. It is very beautiful and reassuring image.

Thanks for this.
Just like Willow, I have also had a strong antipathy against words like faith. It's only recently that I have found a meaning in this word. We are sometimes told to let go, put down, surrender. But if we feel that we are hanging from a cliff, holding on only to a small branch, and don't have great faith, there will be panic and frantic clinging, because beneath us is the certain death of our ego. In this situation, if someone tells us to just let go, we won't listen. So we have to find ways to build that faith. Personally, I have to know, confirm for myself, realize completely, that there is nowhere to fall, before I can let go. In this sense, I'm a control freak. Maybe we all take different paths, but I would say that by simple practice we can get an intuitive feeling of emptiness, the true nature of reality, and of our own nature. For some, maybe this is enough to have great faith? In Shikantaza, we may sometimes get a glimpse of the emptiness of reality and our true/original/buddha nature, experience it first hand. In that moment, I have great faith. But in the next moment, I am still hanging from a branch, refusing to let go. Maybe one day, there will be faith great enough to completely let go in every moment, in every situation in life, great faith always arriving. Then there will be no letting go, because I will not be holding on to anything. But in this moment I can't force myself to have faith, I can only practice. And I suspect that without any faith I wouldn't be practicing. In practice there is already enlightenment. If great faith is not arriving in this moment, that's fine. I will just keep practicing. Ignorance is just buddha nature and we are already Buddha. In this I have faith.

Sorry for lack of clarity... :roll: ops:

/Pontus

[Rich]

Re: Human Route By Zen Master Seung Sahn

Ss might say, don't make anything. Self, noself, trueself, false self. I guess it takes a leap of faith but with a clear mind you do the right thing. Now there is nothing wrong with thinking and planning, but its easy to get stuck in it so you really need to cultivate just sitting mind. Speaking as one imperfect being to others.

[Jinyo]

Re: Human Route By Zen Master Seung Sahn

Kojip - a powerful and reassuring image.

I had originally written I had 'faith' that the noise would recede - then deleted the word 'faith'. I'm not sure why
- some discomfort in using the word faith.

Anyhow - your words clarified what I was struggling to express - and helped untie a knot of confusion.

Gassho,

Willow

[RichardH]

Re: Human Route By Zen Master Seung Sahn

One word we don't hear a lot of in Buddhism is Faith. Not faith in the sense of having faith in something, but faith in the sense of resting with nothing, being suspended without "Mind" or "Self" or anything at all to hold. There can almost be a panic, a scramble, to find some principle to hold, but once the grasping and reaching wind down and subside, there is the ordinary solid ground. My favourite Image of the Buddha is the Earth Touching Mudra, where he reaches down and touches the solid ordinary earth...... calls the Earth to witness. Just like that.

Anyway.. been on a posting roll here of late.... but I just wanted to say that. It is very beautiful and reassuring image.

[Jinyo]

Re: Human Route By Zen Master Seung Sahn

Andy - thanks for the reference - I think I am beginning to grasp that 'no-self' does not mean 'no mind.'

Jundo - I went back over the Buddha basics on this subject and listened to the podcast you've referenced (Rick Hanson).
This has helped a lot - it was quite a relief to hear Hanson say he, at first, struggled with 'no-self' because of his background in psychology.
I don't want to take up space with this here - but sense my own thought processes are scrambled on this subject for a
similar reason. The experience of zazen has become full of 'noise' because of this, so I'm just trying to go with the 'noise' and
waiting for a quieting down.

Seiryu - thankyou for the poem - I did not mean to detract from it.

Gassho,

Willow

[RichardH]

Re: Human Route By Zen Master Seung Sahn

Thanks for sharing! Despite the controversies surrounding him, I've always found Seung Sahn Sunim to be one of the more vivid and insightful characters in Zen.

The Kwan Um school folks I have practiced with are straightforward.

[Kaishin]

Re: Human Route By Zen Master Seung Sahn

Thanks for sharing! Despite the controversies surrounding him, I've always found Seung Sahn Sunim to be one of the more vivid and insightful characters in Zen.