Fear of (method of) death

[Seishin the Elder]

Re: Fear of (method of) death

I have become unafraid of death over the years, knowing that it is inevitable and also having been around it, especially over the past 12 years as the last of the entire previous generation of my family has met death in one way or another. I have also meditated on and comntemplated the fact of death as part of my spiritual exercise and life.

I did have a subtle fear of dying and strangely that was diminished in me when I had a stroke about a year and a half ago. There was a point during the process of the stroke that I felt the numbness creep up my body reaching my chest and I "knew" my heart was going to be affected and that I would die. The flicker of fear was there, but for no more than a few seconds; and then I was enveloped in a calm surrender to whatever this was that was happening. Was it my training? Was is "belief"? Was it simply logical assent? I really cannot tell...it just happened in a matter of a few seconds, and fear of Death and Dying left me.

I still have a number of other fears that may affect me throughout a day, week, month or year but my death or dying is not one of them.

Gassho,

Seishin Kyrill

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Fear of (method of) death

This is something I have never felt before and the thoughts in my head at this time is that "One day I will die and will no longer exist" It was as if before I have this thought I was going around all day thinking I am somehow invincible to death.

Will Kabat Zinn had suggested sometimes sitting and repeating the words "I will die" over and over again. Sounds like lots of fun especially before the start of the weekend. I tend to just return to the blue sky. However, I can understand the benefit in occasionally accepting that we will one day die in a way where we are fully accepting of it. I guess dying is the only certainity in this life.

Thich Nhat Hahn suggests that meditating over dependant origination (interdependant co-arising in his case) is the key to understanding that death is only a notion, an illusion. But in my view, death is an idea that is hard coded into our brains throughout evolution, which makes it hard to get rid of completely. No fear of death was not a recipe for survival when there were sabre tooth tigres lurking behind every bush... TNH often talks about the wooden table that couldn't exist without the carpenter, the lumberjack, the trees, the sunlight, the rain, the soil and so on. They are all part of the table. The table could not exist without them. It is not a separate entity. In a way, human life is like a wave rising from the sea, asking "Who am I? What am I doing here? What will happen when I die?" before being swallowed by the sea again. When the wave returns to the sea, does it die? Cease to exist? One way of realizing dependant origination and impermanence according to TNH is meditating on the image of your dead body (if you want an even better friday night!), watching it go pale and cold, rot, get eaten by maggots, crumble and wither down until only the bones remain, watch the bones turn into dust, that turns into soil, where plants start growing and so on.

/Pontus

[Emmet]

Re: Fear of (method of) death

I have seen a lot of people die over the years, first-hand, up-close and personal, suddenly and slowly, in a lot of different ways. I of course have notions of preference and aversion, but dwelling upon them doesn't bring peace, and as I have very little say over the matter (if indeed any at all), I don't worry about it; life's too short.

"I do not fear death, but I do fear the repurcussions for those around me."

No one saves you. No one can and no one may; you alone must walk the path.
So must they, and no; you can't save them, either. However, by keeping Living Wills, Durable Powers of Attorney, Last Wills (including insurance policies, bank account numbers & passwords, etc.) up-to-date and readily available, you're making the path as smooth for them as possible. If you've done everything in your power to ease their pain and transition, then you can let go of that worry, too.
Live long and prosper,
Emmet

[Hoyu]

Re: Fear of (method of) death

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[RichardH]

Re: Fear of (method of) death

I do not fear death, but I do fear the repurcussions for those around me.

Exactly.

A couple of years ago my partner went through cancer. When the diagnosis first came down and there was lots of uncertainty I told her "You're not allowed to die until Will (our boy) has grown up". She laughed, she got it. Death is a problem for the living. Even my doctor, who has never meditated a day in his life, shrugged when asked about his own death.. "It won't be my problem".

[Amelia]

Re: Fear of (method of) death

Amelia: We have so little control.

Yes, exactly. But to what degree of loss of control brings up a fear of death?
At what degree of loss control do we start to fear death? or anything for that matter?
At what point is it loss of control of life or loss of control of death?
And isn't the whole point of control something our practice teaches us to let go of?
YES

Thank you for making that point to me.

[Ray]

Re: Fear of (method of) death

This is something I have never felt before and the thoughts in my head at this time is that "One day I will die and will no longer exist" It was as if before I have this thought I was going around all day thinking I am somehow invincible to death.

Will Kabat Zinn had suggested sometimes sitting and repeating the words "I will die" over and over again. Sounds like lots of fun especially before the start of the weekend. I tend to just return to the blue sky. However, I can understand the benefit in occasionally accepting that we will one day die in a way where we are fully accepting of it. I guess dying is the only certainity in this life.

Thank you omai,

Your explaination is deep yet very practical and beautiful all at the same time.

Deep gassho

Ps my hero is from sweeden- henrick larsson
Thich Nhat Hahn suggests that meditating over dependant origination (interdependant co-arising in his case) is the key to understanding that death is only a notion, an illusion. But in my view, death is an idea that is hard coded into our brains throughout evolution, which makes it hard to get rid of completely. No fear of death was not a recipe for survival when there were sabre tooth tigres lurking behind every bush... TNH often talks about the wooden table that couldn't exist without the carpenter, the lumberjack, the trees, the sunlight, the rain, the soil and so on. They are all part of the table. The table could not exist without them. It is not a separate entity. In a way, human life is like a wave rising from the sea, asking "Who am I? What am I doing here? What will happen when I die?" before being swallowed by the sea again. When the wave returns to the sea, does it die? Cease to exist? One way of realizing dependant origination and impermanence according to TNH is meditating on the image of your dead body (if you want an even better friday night!), watching it go pale and cold, rot, get eaten by maggots, crumble and wither down until only the bones remain, watch the bones turn into dust, that turns into soil, where plants start growing and so on.

/Pontus

[Omoi Otoshi]

Fear of (method of) death

Thanks, although half of that was only parroting Thich Nhat Hahn's words! I'm glad it resonated with you as it did with me. I'm a very practical person myself!
And yes, I'm from the same area in Sweden that Henrik is from, so I like him too! I take it you're a Celtics fan?

/Pontus

[Jundo]

Re: Fear of (method of) death

Hi,

I am reminded of a quote from Master Huang Po (still alive and kicking when he said it many centuries back) ...

"If an ordinary man, when he is about to die, could only see the five elements of consciousness as void; the four physical elements as not constituting an 'I'; the real Mind as formless and neither coming nor going; his nature as something neither commencing at his birth nor perishing at his death, but as whole and motionless in its very depths; his Mind and environmental objects as one - if he could really accomplish this, he would receive Enlightenment in a flash. He would no longer be entangled by the Triple World; he would be a World-Transcendor.

The "in a nutshell" version may be this:

See all aspects of "self/body/mind/world" as "empty", drop all thoughts of "self" "other" "this" "that" "life" "death" ..... and thus find "Being beyond Being-Non Being/True Self/Mind" by dropping all thought of "being/small self/ mind" into the dance and flow of emptiness ..... then this "death" thing turns out to be no big deal. Granted, Master Huang Po says it in a a rather more florid and powerful way (especially in that lovely translation by Blofeld), but the point he was making is clear.

And, please, notice the resonance to our "Shikantaza" Zazen Practice in which we "just sit", dropping all thought of "self" "other" "this" "that" "life" "death" etc. etc. My first teacher, Azuma Ikuo of Sojiji, once said that sitting Zazen is rehearsal for a graceful death ... and also practice for living a graceful life in the meantime.

I also have another Story about Azuma Roshi ...

I remember how shocked I was when I saw Azuma Roshi, my first "real Japanese Zen Master", crying one day soon after his wife died. I had just come to Japan, and thought Zen teachers were supposed to be above all that. I said to him directly (and a bit coldly) "I thought 'life and death' are but a dream, so why are you crying?" He responded, "Life and death are but a dream. I am crying because beloved wife died." :cry:

I wrote this on fear of death once ...

I fear death. "Fear of death" is programmed into the most primitive lizard parts of the brain. I doubt that there has ever been a living creature with a medulla oblongata and other parts of our early brain who does not sometimes fear death at a very primal level. Death is scary! Ask a gazelle being chased by a tiger.

One thing, though, that can be attained from all this Zen Practice ... tasting to the marrow all the Truth(s) offered ... is something that I might term "fear without fear" ....

... which is kind of life feeling "fear" and "no fear/fearlessness" all at once ... and is sometimes also experiencing "no fear" whatsoever when other people might be experiencing "fear" ... and is also sometimes "not fearing that sometimes we fear", because it is the natural human condition.

I believe that it is the above tastes which are the unique fruits of Buddhist practice.

There are parts of us (beyond "us") that can pierce "no life/no death" ... there are other parts of the us that get very scared, whimper like a baby in the face of a hungry tiger. All can happen, and be part of our humanity, at once. Even though I no longer "fear death" in some ways ... my knees will shake at appropriate times too. I don't like doctors offices, airplanes (even though I have crossed the Pacific maybe 75 times), driving too fast on the highway, or even elevators (I was caught in an elevator in the great New York blackout of 1963 as a small child, still sometimes don't like the things).

And that's okay ... cause ...

... sometimes we human beings (until we are 'Perfect Fearless Golden Buddhas' like in the idealized story books where all the humanity has been scrubbed out) feel fear in life ... sometimes we feel fear and no fear at once ... sometimes we feel fearlessness when other folks might really be afraid about a situation ... and sometimes we feel no fear about the fact that sometimes we might feel afraid, because such is the human condition to be worked up and tangled up sometimes ...

And knowing fearlessness about all that, even no fear about sometimes being a little afraid, is ...

True Fearlessness!

Perfect Fearless Golden Buddha in the Flesh!

Gassho, J

[Kaishin]

Re: Fear of (method of) death

Thanks, Jundo. Also brings to mind the story of Dogen crying over the dead infant. Some things are just sad and painful, but to be sad and pained in the moment, and not be overwhelmed by the accompanying anxiety or downward spiral that so often causes much suffering, that is the trick.

_/_

[Omoi Otoshi]

Fear of (method of) death

I fear how when I imagine worst case scenarios. Afraid of long slow death like my moms cancer. Want to go quick like my sister who took a bullet in the head (not self inflicted).
Thing I've feared for years is being paralyzed. Worse case is quadriplegia --- I rather die slow cancer death than long life so critically disabled.
Might could muddle through as a paraplegic. Of course this is all fearful imagination, I might just do fine in any case. I never thought I'd be living on chemo for months on end either and once I got used to it, not so bad.

I know that you know what you are talking about regarding this matter, so thank you for sharing.
Being physically disabled is not my greatest fear personally. This body is my temple and I try to take care if it, but it's not holy, it's just a body, just a temple, just a manifestation. If Stephen Hawkins can manage I can too, and I was born in a country where there is all kinds of help to get. Not being able to be in nature I would miss. Not being able to go out and meet people I would miss too. But I believe I could manage. Losing my mind would be harder to cope with, at least in the beginning, sinking deeper and deeper into confusion, delusion. Losing affinity with who I truly am. But that is not now and I can't do much about the future, so I try to leave it be.

/Pontus

[AlanLa]

Re: Fear of (method of) death

It's interesting what people cling to, what people choose to attach to at the exclusion of something else, thus creating truly delusional false dualities. For example, choosing to cling to an ability (i.e., walking or seeing or thinking, etc.) over life itself. "I'd rather be dead than [insert disability here]" is a common view that many have. But Really? Where did such an idea, or similar ideas, come from? Search your mind for the source of that delusion, or all delusions, and I think you will find conditioning. Life is such a precious gift. Would you really give it up so easily. Many say such a thing, but most people change their mind when the natural changes of life take their abilities away. Not everyone, sadly, because some people really do choose to die from that delusion, but most get a bit enlightened by the experience of loss.

The thread was about fear of method of death, but sometimes we are really more afraid of our method of life. It's interesting how we can so easily confuse the two.

[threethirty]

Re: Fear of (method of) death

I also have a non-death phobia. I am afraid of heights... upto 50 ft or so. I am terrified to climb a ladder, but airplanes are no issue. I'm not afraid of death, I'm afraid of being debilitatingly injured. The idea of breaking bones or being paralyzed.

So yeah, not that odd... or we are both odd

[Hoyu]

Re: Fear of (method of) death

It's interesting what people cling to, what people choose to attach to at the exclusion of something else, thus creating truly delusional false dualities. For example, choosing to cling to an ability (i.e., walking or seeing or thinking, etc.) over life itself. "I'd rather be dead than [insert disability here]" is a common view that many have. But Really? Where did such an idea, or similar ideas, come from? Search your mind for the source of that delusion, or all delusions, and I think you will find conditioning. Life is such a precious gift. Would you really give it up so easily. Many say such a thing, but most people change their mind when the natural changes of life take their abilities away. Not everyone, sadly, because some people really do choose to die from that delusion, but most get a bit enlightened by the experience of loss.

The thread was about fear of method of death, but sometimes we are really more afraid of our method of life. It's interesting how we can so easily confuse the two.

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[lorax]

Re: Fear of (method of) death

I kind of stewed over this thread thinking are we talking about event of death or what might lead to that event. Like Kyrillos I had what might be called a threshold experience last winter. I was flown by helicopter to the major medical center with a very advanced case of pneumonia. My lungs had filled with fluid and I was not expected to live. By the time they got me in the ICU, the pain, congestion and breathing crisis was gone, I felt myself drifting off like an ebb tide, a little less wave, clatter of shells, and shifting of sand with each moment. Then a very sharp pain as they inserted the chest tube and another as they established a central venous line. No more ebb tide, back with the pain, congestion and breathing difficulty.

So my observation is that we come into this world and the light switch is turned on, no memory of what preceded that first breath and cry. We go through life and then the switch goes off. Between those events we simply live. We don’t die from pneumonia, from cancer, from trauma,. We live with it and most times recover but sometimes that suffering ends with the switch going off. Nothing to be afraid of any more than enduring the ups and downs of life.

After that experience and recalling other close calls in my life, I am glad that I was fortunate to experience that near end event. Like Kyrillos, I no longer fear the end of this life. Our practice helps us deal with the ups and downs of our lives to the moment the switch is thrown.

So don’t fear the inevitable, as Jundo would say, “just sit”.

Jim