Newcomer Attrition in Zen (SPLIT TOPIC)

[Hoyu]

Re: Newcomer Attrition in Zen (SPLIT TOPIC)

Just some more random thoughts on this topic.

Michael wrote:
Statistics on another forum shows an extremely high attrition rate (95% +)

Hi All,

Though I don't know about the studies which have been done to arrive at this percentile, I'll still go with it. Though 95% seems like shocking number leading to concern, I believe it to be a rather common number. I say this from experience playing both the role of the common 95% and the rare 5% in regards to my own various endeavors.
The longer you stick with any given commitment the more you bear witness to the commings and goings of that larger percentile who quit or move on to something else.

I'm sure others can attest to this and how numbers like these don't just apply to Zen.

Take for example the martial arts. Having given many years of study to them I have seen countless people come and go. Some after a month, others after a year, and even some yet after just one class.
As to the argument that if we just change/remove things we can retain more people I further have this to say. Getting punched in the face hurts! Aversion to pain quite likely makes up a portion of the 95% in this regard. So how many more people could we keep in class if we just eliminated punching and kicking? Would it be the same art if we did?

That's not to say that you can't remove some things here too. It just must be done by skillful means. An example of this can be found in Judo. The founder(Jigoro Kano) eliminated many of the dangerous techniques of Jujitsu when creating his own system.

Once again careful consideration must go into what will come out on the other end if you do!

Gassho,
John

[Jinyo]

Re: Newcomer Attrition in Zen (SPLIT TOPIC)

Yugen - I found your post very moving.
Thankyou.

[Hans]

Re: Newcomer Attrition in Zen (SPLIT TOPIC)

Hello,


@ Yugen: Thank you for your post.


@ all:

Just to put things into perspective a bit regarding ritual (and I do feel I am not exaggerating), please allow me to use a metaphor.

If the average Soto-Shu monastery with all its seasonal local guardian deity rituals, daily kitchen God rituals, general merit transfer and sutra shuffling rituals etc. is the Mount Everst in terms of extra ritual bling-bling stuff, then we here at Treeleaf are a hill, not even a mountain.

Seriously, if you look at the yearly ritual/bell/whatever you want to call it schedules that are normal in the Japanese Soto school, Treeleaf is much closer to Charlotte Joko Beck than to traditional orthodoxy.

(sucking up to the teacher alert!!! RUN AWAYYYY!!!) I am very much a fanboy when it comes to Jundo's ritual balancing act so to speak


Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Yugen]

Re: Newcomer Attrition in Zen (SPLIT TOPIC)

Willow,
Thank you, and welcome to Treeleaf! I am looking forward to practicing with you!

Hans,
I agree with you in regard to Jundo's "balancing act" - I find it just right!

Gassho,
Yugen

[Risho]

Re: Newcomer Attrition in Zen (SPLIT TOPIC)

There are some awesome posts here! Gassho everyone, and Gassho Yugen.

Sometimes, I think that things that are esoteric like Zen liturgy and practice are very useful tools for realizing ourselves, noticing ourselves. It's like the first time you do something, like riding a bike, it's out of the ordinary. It's different. We're very self conscious about where are feet are in relation to the pedals, our balance so we don't fall over, our position so we don't run into something or have something run into us.

Then when we learn it, it becomes rote. But a lot of things we do are rote, and they pass us right by. Most of my life is like this. I sometimes "wake up" in the middle of brushing my teeth, like oh yeah I'm brushing my teeth.

A daily liturgy shouldn't become rote. I can't really argue with certainty what is right. I don't know if there is a right way, and I'm certainly not qualified to say what it is for Zen. I'm a beginning practitioner, and I don't have enough experience to know what is useful or not. Therefore, I rely on my teachers and my sangha as guides. i also have responsibility for what I do, but I rely on the support and the traditions here a lot.

That being said, I'm a fierce individualist and I don't want to just practice something or follow something because it's "Zen". I also don't want to abandon something because it doesn't fit in with my "conception" of things (throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak). Let's face it, we all have a liturgy, to paraphrase Daido Roshi: the way we drive, walk, say hello, celebrate holidays and sporting events, etc. Those are just as "odd" to someone not familiar with them. But those habitual daily things our are liturgy.

The difference with Zen liturgy is that it creates a space for us to notice ourselves, forgetting ourselves, becoming truly compassionate. We can apply that to our lives.

Sometimes I simply reject the practice, but time and time again life proves to me its value.

Gassho,

Risho

Edit: sorry about the stream of consciousness writing. lol I sometimes dont' have time to post a lot, so I get all this stuff I want to get out! ahahah in any case, I struggle with the practice, but that's where the precepts really help me. I think when we drop out or give up, we need to think about how it impacts others in the sangha too. Sometimes, as Jundo sensei said, it's not right for everyone. I mean different strokes for different folks, but I see it as something brought me here with you all, and I think it's really interesting to investigate this practice. At first I was weirded out by it too, my wife was weirded out. It was all part of the honeymoon phase with Zen. ok now I'm truly rambling. hahha anyway happy friday and I'm glad I found this sangha and can practice with you all

[Taigu]

Re: Newcomer Attrition in Zen (SPLIT TOPIC)

Just a few words about the way I see it:

My training was originally quite strict and formal and over the years, as I moved away from the sangha that taught me, as my first teacher died, I went through a phasis of challenging what had been handed down to me.
when I met Mike Cross, I was the real mess he described, and all I could do was to practice with very little Japanese forms, ( Nishijima never really insisted on these) and Chodo was boiling it down to a minimum.

Moving to Japan, my intention was to study some esoteric rituals if I had the opportunity and season my practice with Japanese flavour...and what I find myself doing is just dead simple: a few ceremonies, just sitting, shavIng my head and sewing the okesa. I don t mind about these byzantine rules and processus although I strongly recommand my close students to study them so they can see for themselves, take what they feel right and also blend when they visit other communities.

To sit, all you need is a cushion, your butt and a wall.

i would say that here the very core is shikantaza. And the realization that life is practice, practice is life. For people wanting to commit further, some chanting, rakusu sewing and recieving the precepts would be the natural way. sewing an Okesa is made possible when you are given the greenlight from one of the teachers. the next step is to receive tokudo which manifests the wish to give yourself to practice and to serve sentient beings in the four directions. As long as you keep sitting and okesa alive, the amount of religious forms you throw intothe mix is your choice. But, it is also true that our resistance is an amazing teacher, and Jundo or myself might strongly recommand you to start to practice or study religious forms.

And if I use shippei ( also known as nyobo or kotsu ) or a hossu ( whisk with horse hair used in ceremonies), If I wear extravagant robes ( colourful funzoe), it is just because it feels appropriate. These objects might or might not be dropped by future generations of teachers. for now, they are in my hands and mind. I will transmit them if I transmit the Dharma.

No need to be religious or spiritual though.

Whoever you are and no matter how simple or complicated is your practice, you are my brother.


Gassho


Taigu

[Dokan]

Re: Re: Newcomer Attrition in Zen (SPLIT TOPIC)

To sit, all you need is a cushion, your butt and a wall.

Fukanzazengi Rufu-bon in a single sentence. Beautiful!

Deep Gassho,

Dokan

[Keishin]

Re: Newcomer Attrition in Zen (SPLIT TOPIC)

hellos to all posting here!


great thread (just curious, what topic was it 'split' from?)


Michael, to your original question regarding attrition of 95% or whatever it in fact 'really' is....I would say this:

don't worry about it

Let that thought--like so many others--pass through consciousness unobstructed...
I have not found any notion of 'success' in zen in my years of zazen practice.

Do what is fitting under the circumstances and the moment. Don't worry about others. If I sit with others on a regular basis then I help maintain a time and place for (as yet) unknown others who are 'seeking' to stumble across what may point them in a direction correct for them. It cannot help but do so. If they take to sitting, it is a direction for which there is affinity. If they do not 'take' to it for whatever reason, then it allows them to refine what they are 'seeking'--which still points them toward a direction correct for them.

At some point the notion of 'seeking' gets unpacked (or not--there are permanent seekers out there...).

Just because it appears someone has 'arrived' for a time and 'left' a sitting group doesn't mean I know much of anything about them or their practice or the future of their practice. When I sit together with others there is mutual support of the practice of zazen. When I moved to a new city, when one group changed its schedule several times and then closed...these things didn't mean I stopped sitting, even if I stopped sitting for a period of time. It might have looked like attrition to someone somewhere measuring things, but that would not have been accurate.

In my experience there is no measure of success in zazen no more than there is a measure of success for the 'big bang,' or for our Sun, for a river, for a snowflake.

[Risho]

Re: Newcomer Attrition in Zen (SPLIT TOPIC)

Whoever you are and no matter how simple or complicated is your practice, you are my brother.

Gassho

[RichardH]

Re: Newcomer Attrition in Zen (SPLIT TOPIC)

I am going to lay it on the line here as I sense you guys can handle it. Another forum would amp up. My view is to leave all 'religious' symbols and liturgy out for learners. And most definitely throw out the black. Mix the colours, lighten the room. The heart of Zen is Zazen. Ground the practice in Zazen then those that wish will naturally enquire into the rest.

I feel really quite shocked at how many very serious practitioners are besotted with the bells, whistles and trimmings. They just have to shove it down a learner's throat, why? because they are no different to Christians – but cannot admit it.

Also stick to 'just sitting' with no other direction than position. 'You already have it' is just so so important. Also multiple 25m sits with kinhin can work quite well. Make the sitting as comfortable as posssible. Yes, I agree that we should not hide the fact that is serious bitter medicine. It aint going to feel great during a sit.

Just my views

Cheers

m

Regarding the attrition rate..

In both the Theravadin Sangha experience, and Zen Sangha experience, it has always been the same... some people coming just once, some coming and staying a little while then leaving, some coming and staying a long while then leaving. There are few "lifers". The lifers go through all kinds of ups and downs and maybe go away and come back a few times. But commitment to see it through comes only when there is no other choice left. Attrition rate at an online Sangha like this may be higher because a click of a mouse does not require the same commitment as walking through the snow to the Zendo.

Regarding bells and whistles and such...

The vehicle is that. The practice is super-simple just sitting, but the vehicle is more than that. It includes aspiration, devotional practice (that one freaks people out) and embodying ritual, that when practiced is like joining a big old river. Back when I was a "facilitator" with the local Lay Theravadin Sangha, my role was to lead in ritual, facilitate group sittings, and welcome new people. One issue that came up all the time was new people (maybe feeling burned by Mom and Dad's church) who said the ritual was alienating. We decided to after a time to appease that and reduce the ritual. But then there was some other element of Buddhism that new people found off-putting or (heaven forbid) "religious". On it went. Eventually we decided to just say. "It is what it is, take or leave it", and brought back the ritual which is beautiful and has deep resonance for many people.

[michaeljc]

Re: Newcomer Attrition in Zen (SPLIT TOPIC)

Thanks all for the great feedback. I repeat again that I have no problems at all over how other Zen Buddhists practice. They can prostrate all the way to India for all I care. I do care about the fact that many ordinary people in this modern age could benefit immensely from Zazen. The objective is simple; formulate the best environment in which newcomers can experience benefits from Zazen. Now, that aint easy.

Some people are naturally attracted to ritual. I am not convinced that they are naturally receptive to Zen. With the risk of sounding arrogant I will pass on my feeling that some immensely intelligent scholarly monks writing screeds of metaphysical ramblings and scriptural interpretations in other forums still do not get it!! They are not ever going to make teachers for learners.

To me the introduction should pass the message to the student that this practice is for them personally. The simple principles are:

Everything is Kosher
This is your practice
You have everything that is required
There is nothing to fear

'Just sit' sums it up perfectly

Defining the length and number of sits in a group is going to be the most problematic issue. I sat a sesshin once that was built around 25 m sits (with Kinhin) . This could be a good compromise. Allowing learners to change position may also be on. The group situation, when lead by an experienced sitter, encourages people to remain still so I do not think moving would get out of hand.

To sum up: Lighten up

IMO

Regards

m

[Rich]

Re: Newcomer Attrition in Zen (SPLIT TOPIC)

In retreat/sesshin sometime l sit on cushion, sometime sit in chair, sometime stand. Next time maybe I lie down.

I thought I read somewhere that buddhism is fastest growing religion in the west so it seems to be taking care of itself. There is no meaning other than trying tohelp all beings

I like to ring the bell during the bell chant.

[Taigu]

Re: Newcomer Attrition in Zen (SPLIT TOPIC)

The take it or leave it attitude is a very good one when it is done with respect and when the newcomer is given plenty of time to adjust and get used to the new aspects.

A few teachers in the West made the choice to lighten up and get rid of everything, bells, whistles, kesas, robes, statues...the whole lot. Butt, cushion and wall remains. But in the process of doing so a more psychological, counselling or philosophical taste starts to surface to compensate for the lack of ritual, or, to say it differently, one witnesses the ritualisation of the gathering of people in a different way: circles, group dicussions etc.

I think that we have a good balance in Treeleaf and we don t overdo things. I strongly feel that if we let the religious dimension go, we loose an important part of this path. When people understand that the religious is just a manifestation of compassion, that it takes shikantaza away from the personnal healing and well being sphere, they wake up to its actual necessity.

Gassho


Taigu

[Jinyu]

Re: Newcomer Attrition in Zen (SPLIT TOPIC)

When people understand that the religious is just a manifestation of compassion, that it takes shikantaza away from the personnal healing and well being sphere, they wake up to its actual necessity.

AMEN!

[Kaishin]

Re: Newcomer Attrition in Zen (SPLIT TOPIC)

Where does this fear of attrition come from, Michael? You've got a couple threads going now... maybe I missed something, but did something happen lately?