Why practice?

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Why practice?

It's different for different people maybe , but for me Dukkha is always there, whether it is the beauty of the world or the darkness. The question of the OP was "Why practice" and that is why. Practice is the practice of Non-dukkha in the midst of pleasure/pain. I think that existence, extension in space, time/unfolding is Dukkha, and Dukkha is existence, so there is no Dukha free corner of conditions, only the practice of letting go/be conditions over and over again in all conditions. In a way when things are nice, when things are "going my way" practice suffers more because I can sometimes buy the compensations. Oddly I don't feel bad about the state of the world at all, it doesn't look particularly bad to me, and besides, compared to what? Life is good, it just hurts.

Thank you, I see what you mean. The darkest moments are, in a way, great practice, causing Great Doubt, showing us dukkha in an undeniable way and functioning as a proving ground for practice, but may also make us despair, doubt, lose faith, get angry, hateful, unbalanced. When we are feeling really good about ourselves and our practice, life is easy and as you say, practice may suffer. Our attachments and delusions are well hidden and our ego has no interest letting us see through that veil of feelgood. On the other hand, we can more easily be energetic, compassionate, balanced etc. There is a middle way here.

/Pontus

[RichardH]

Re: Why practice?

It's different for different people maybe , but for me Dukkha is always there, whether it is the beauty of the world or the darkness. The question of the OP was "Why practice" and that is why. Practice is the practice of Non-dukkha in the midst of pleasure/pain. I think that existence, extension in space, time/unfolding is Dukkha, and Dukkha is existence, so there is no Dukha free corner of conditions, only the practice of letting go/be conditions over and over again in all conditions. In a way when things are nice, when things are "going my way" practice suffers more because I can sometimes buy the compensations. Oddly I don't feel bad about the state of the world at all, it doesn't look particularly bad to me, and besides, compared to what? Life is good, it just hurts.

Thank you, I see what you mean. The darkest moments are, in a way, great practice, causing Great Doubt, showing us dukkha in an undeniable way and functioning as a proving ground for practice, but may also make us despair, doubt, lose faith, get angry, hateful, unbalanced. When we are feeling really good about ourselves and our practice, life is easy and as you say, practice may suffer. Our attachments and delusions are well hidden and our ego has no interest letting us see through that veil of feelgood. On the other hand, we can more easily be energetic, compassionate, balanced etc. There is a middle way here.

/Pontus

It seems to be different for different people, that middle ground. Perhaps a teacher could shed light? For me this is, pardon heaviness, a matter of living and dying. I've seen how ephemeral life is, and how deep suffering can be. And although the existential fear of being a lone particle in a cold universe gets resolved with certain openings and realizations, there is still seeing those I love suffer and die, or them suffering my dying. My heart still goes out with my 13 year old on his bike, or with my partner to her mammogram. This body is aging yet has to work harder and keep inventing. "Ultimately" all this is "just so", no problem, yet it is suffering and it is imminent. So for me the middle has to be wherever I find myself. "just like this". The compensations, those things that make me feel up, good , valued, have come and gone too many times and the reflex to build upon them has played out. Not that I don't enjoy too many holiday chocolates, or enjoy playing the wii with my kid. It's just that I've been in the "God realm" and back down to the "Hells", and have also been a Hungry Ghost. There is only one option now, practice. There was an art show here not long ago, an "installation" about beavers (kind of tongue in cheek). It was called "CHEW OR DIE" That kind of of says it in a way.

Don't get me wrong, life is fun. It's just that's where thing are at for me. Anyway I should stop just posting here and participate in stuff.

Gassho to you Pontus.

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Why practice?

Thank you Kojip,
You are much more experienced in life, sitting and buddhism than I am, and I thank you for your patience. Although I do not know you, I must say I already respect you greatly and I always look forward to your posts, so please don't stop posting! :shock: But participating in stuff doesn't sound like a bad idea either! :lol: Not that I agree with everything you say, but your posts always seem to come from your heart and grounded in experience. I appreciate that you share your views with us. It's only views after all, but I have always liked to hear as many points of view as possible to shed light on a subject. Don't forget to keep that beginner's mind and thanks for practicing!

Gassho,
Pontus

[Jundo]

Re: Why practice?

It seems to be different for different people, that middle ground. Perhaps a teacher could shed light? For me this is, pardon heaviness, a matter of living and dying. I've seen how ephemeral life is, and how deep suffering can be.

One has to be one's own teacher on such things ... or perhaps life's Dukkha is the teacher of Dukkha. One can't write down in an easy formula the ways in which Buddhist Practice's "Rubber Meets the Road" of life's sweetness and bitterness (our dear member Rich, writing on another thread about the heartbreak of the recent death of his daughter, is a case in point).

I'll just say this: For most folks (until we are all perfect Buddhas), sometimes Dukkha is very strong, sometimes it can greatly or wholly drop away, sometimes more one or the other ... sometimes (and this is the True Treasure of Buddhist Practice) both At Once, As One (Dukkha fully dropped away as we hand-in-hand live in a sometimes heart breaking world of Dukkha!).

I also think it depends on the person ... some folks being natural "glass is half empty" types, some "glass is half full" types (Buddhists learn to find the Non-Empty Emptyness by which the clear clear glass was Always Empty-Full From the Start! 8) ) The Buddha taught that Dukkha is always present even in happy times (for example, to the degree we cling to them, run after them, clutch at them, do not wish to see them go). Dukkha is inherent in the human condition and our ever impermanent world.

However, Nirvana is always inherent in this human condition too ... in both the happy and the sad ... in the unchanging impermanent world ... shining in/as/behind/through-and-through Dukkha when seen as such (in Zazen, of course! 8) ).

For folks who might not know Dukkha ... and 'What Dukkha Do" ... here are a couple of introductory talks on the topic ...

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=2942

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=2941

Gassho, J

[Rich]

Re: Why practice?

I haven't read all the replies so this may have been mentioned. The direction we are headed is to help all beings. If we were perfect beings we wouldn't need practice because we would naturally just be well - perfect. But this isn't the way things are - we are imperfect and this little I,me,my keeps leading us astray. So we practice just sitting or just don't knowing so our action and our suffering is for all beings.

[RichardH]

Re: Why practice?

Thank you Kojip,
You are much more experienced in life, sitting and buddhism than I am, and I thank you for your patience. Although I do not know you, I must say I already respect you greatly and I always look forward to your posts, so please don't stop posting! :shock: But participating in stuff doesn't sound like a bad idea either! :lol: Not that I agree with everything you say, but your posts always seem to come from your heart and grounded in experience. I appreciate that you share your views with us. It's only views after all, but I have always liked to hear as many points of view as possible to shed light on a subject. Don't forget to keep that beginner's mind and thanks for practicing!

Gassho,
Pontus

I don't know how long you have been practicing, but there seems to be seasons to it. Most people I know have, through the years, gone through going away and coming back, being diligent and slacking. One thing that changes is that inspiration stops being a hidden support condition. You go through being inspired and uninspired enough times until practice does not depend on inspiration. The First Noble Truth has spoiled the party and practice is the only option... at wit's end. Until then, at least for me, there was an element of charade, and there can still be at times, it's amazing. This is, like you say, just a view, but it is a sincere one. No claim to gospel.

[michaeljc]

Re: Why practice?

On analysis, I would have to say that I practice to stabilise my life. Sitting results in a re-grounding and a degree of normality - regardless of the situation or my mood, when I sit. It is truly a 'coming home'. What a wonderful home this is. So many times when first sitting on the cushion the thought has run through my head; 'this is so simple, so easy; just 1 cushion, that is all one needs'.
m

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Why practice?

I don't know how long you have been practicing, but there seems to be seasons to it. Most people I know have, through the years, gone through going away and coming back, being diligent and slacking. One thing that changes is that inspiration stops being a hidden support condition. You go through being inspired and uninspired enough times until practice does not depend on inspiration. The First Noble Truth has spoiled the party and practice is the only option... at wit's end. Until then, at least for me, there was an element of charade, and there can still be at times, it's amazing. This is, like you say, just a view, but it is a sincere one. No claim to gospel.

Thank you. Much of what you say is my view also.

My own practice has been very patchy over the years. I had my first small glimpses of no-self and samadhi maybe twenty years ago. I first sat Zazen maybe fifteen years ago. I only recently started to sit regulary, maybe a couple of years ago. This was when I encountered Soto Zen and Dogen. I can't really say how long I have been practicing. Formally, not for long.

I too have always been going away (to where?) and coming back (to what?) during the years. Many times I have been "away" for years. Sometimes inspiration has been key to coming back, say after reading a book, having a certain experience in life. Other times, dukkha. Other times I had no idea. It wasn't a premeditated decision. Sometimes when I "left" the path, I still felt some kind of faith that I would eventually "be back". But I felt I still had to explore that feeling of doubt fully, follow it all the way, study it, get to know it. I didn't want to try to chase it away and I didn't want to charade "practice", trying to be diligent and not slacking, when it wasn't what I would call true practice and I felt I was deluding myself too much. In those times away from it all, it felt better to take a step back and just experience life, live life as a decent person, even though I didn't sit regularly. No hurry. Sometimes other samsaric issues at hand felt more important than practice, I'm just an ordinary deluded human after all. Different seasons in practice and what you consider to be practice, like you say. I have this idea that we're all charading all the time, sometimes more, sometimes less. If not we are truly liberated. We may not be aware of the charade, but it's still there, in the background. And that's OK. But this is only a view of things, a deluded one, but what I believe to be an honest view. I may have had some small insight into the four noble truths, but I don't believe I have realized them fully, to the bones, but maybe to a degree where I can at least understand what you mean by practice being the only option.

/Pontus

[michaeljc]

Re: Why practice?

Songs birding- blooms flowering ( improvised written crap on why practising)

When shall you wake up to the fact that not a single thing is excluded,
that nothing and nobody can jump out of the circle of as-it-isness,
Not even the person you are?
The whole thing transcends practice and non-practice
every moment the whole body manifests itself and disappears
moon whirls and sun spits
steel and water share the same shadow
dust and gold the same origin
throw away this mind
throw away what throws away too
eyes not even blinking
you will hug your beloved
in the here-now
your beloved will touch you
beyond all touch
for this is you
but you are not entirely it

Nothing hidden, take away; added
two flames meeting
clouds undone in clouds
the vast sky in your hand
mountains-rivers-cities-seas
in your eyes

all is well...

all

is


gassho

Taigu

With words like these who needs sutras. Just beautiful Taigu. I printed a copy and gave it my little sitting mate – the first writings I thought appropriate. It is wonderful to see how she has progressed with no other instruction than 'Just sit, you already have it all'.

m

[RichardH]

Re: Why practice?

I too have always been going away (to where?) and coming back (to what?) during the years.

Yes of course no coming and no going. We can put coming and going in quotes. But that can also precisely be the charade, and usually is, because although there is no coming and going, there is effectively coming and going. If you want to know about my coming and going, my time of strong practice and of slacking, ask my wife, ask those I work with, live with. That is where putting quotes around conventional truth and evoking emptiness rings hollow or not. :wink:

[disastermouse]

Re: Why practice?

Songs birding- blooms flowering ( improvised written crap on why practising)

When shall you wake up to the fact that not a single thing is excluded,
that nothing and nobody can jump out of the circle of as-it-isness,
Not even the person you are?
The whole thing transcends practice and non-practice
every moment the whole body manifests itself and disappears
moon whirls and sun spits
steel and water share the same shadow
dust and gold the same origin
throw away this mind
throw away what throws away too
eyes not even blinking
you will hug your beloved
in the here-now
your beloved will touch you
beyond all touch
for this is you
but you are not entirely it

Nothing hidden, take away; added
two flames meeting
clouds undone in clouds
the vast sky in your hand
mountains-rivers-cities-seas
in your eyes

all is well...

all

is


gassho

Taigu

Lin Chi said it in fewer words...or maybe not - maybe he said more but only the kernel remained over the years:

"What at this very moment is missing?"

Chet

[Omoi Otoshi]

Why practice?

These questions (to where? to what?) can be understood both from an absolute and relative perspective. Even though I have not fully realized emptiness, I can understand how there is no coming or going in the absolute, non-dual, no-self sense. But I have also asked myself these questions in the relative, conventional sense, ie what coming and going away means for my everyday life and my practice. And the meaning of the quotation marks was not so much charading no-self, as pointing out that I'm not certain we ever really leave the path and practice, when we are going away. As you say, the people around us are often the best judges of our practice. Although sometimes we can fool both ourselves and the ones closest to us for quite some time. Sometimes, in retrospect, I see that my time away from practice has been important, revitalizing it. Sometimes it has been more like chasing an illusion for far too long, before finally opening my eyes again. But what is important is practice, and life, now.

[disastermouse]

Re: Why practice?

These questions (to where? to what?) can be understood both from an absolute and relative perspective. Even though I have not fully realized emptiness, I can understand how there is no coming or going in the absolute, non-dual, no-self sense. But I have also asked myself these questions in the relative, conventional sense, ie what coming and going away means for my everyday life and my practice. And the meaning of the quotation marks was not so much charading no-self, as pointing out that I'm not certain we ever really leave the path and practice, when we are going away. As you say, the people around us are often the best judges of our practice. Although sometimes we can fool both ourselves and the ones closest to us for quite some time. Sometimes, in retrospect, I see that my time away from practice has been important, revitalizing it. Sometimes it has been more like chasing an illusion for far too long, before finally opening my eyes again. But what is important is practice, and life, now.

You won't realize emptiness - it's not something that's realized I don't think. It's more like ..... have you ever been holding your breath but didn't realize it until you exhaled? It's a bit like that. IMHE, of course.

Chet

[Dokan]

Re: Re: Why practice?

You won't realize emptiness - it's not something that's realized I don't think.

Just started reading Hanh's Heart Sutra commentary and thought his words on emptiness were quite interesting.:

"Form is the wave and emptiness is the water"

"Emptiness means empty of a separate self. It is full of everything, full of life."

So from Hanh's pespective, maybe you can realize emptiness, but only as it appears as form?


Gassho

Dokan

Sent from my SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

[disastermouse]

Re: Re: Why practice?

You won't realize emptiness - it's not something that's realized I don't think.

Just started reading Hanh's Heart Sutra commentary and thought his words on emptiness were quite interesting.:

"Form is the wave and emptiness is the water"

"Emptiness means empty of a separate self. It is full of everything, full of life."

So from Hanh's pespective, maybe you can realize emptiness, but only as it appears as form?


Gassho

Dokan

Sent from my SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

Same thing.

Funny story....a year or two after sitting regularly, I was walking after meditation, and was having a difficult time not seeing things as separate-not-separate. I could see them separate, but not not-separate...and so I looked very closely at a snowbank or something and it began it irritate me....I was obsessed with seeing things as not-separate, but I couldn't! Suddenly, it occurred to me that I was STARTING from separate and trying to make them not-separate. But you can't make separate things not-separate. Not-separate (empty) is not something that has to be made out of things - it's what's there before separate comes about. They are not fundamentally different. Yet, if you get stuck trying to see them a particular way, even a way that you've experienced before as essentially 'true', you are still stuck.

You can not see emptiness if you insist on form. Remember the sutra - emptiness is form but it is also EMPTINESS. IMHE.

Chet