TRAVEL DIARY: Jundo Goes To China

[Kaishin]

Re: TRAVEL DIARY: Jundo Goes To China

Thanks for the update! Your cell phone purchasing bit was hilarious

I do not think "devotional" and "worship" is the right word here. Pure land methods have faith at its core, but it cannot be likened to that of the Catholic church. It is an entirely different concept. Chanting amituofo can be, and is, considered as one meditation method. It's right concentration and right action all in one!

I wonder, is that the case for the laity in China? From what Jundo has described at other times, it sounds to me that laity with a very casual relationship to Buddhism (not unlike "Sunday Christians" here) might very well have a worship-like relationship with Amida/etc, full of devotion, praying for assistance, et al that you would see in the Western traditions. Maybe there are people who truly worship Buddhist figures in a literal sense?

It seems that the West has adopted Buddhism as something contrary to the Abrahamic worship style of religion and has left behind many of the devotional aspects of practice. I would say this is definitely true of Western Zen in the Japanse style from what I've seen.

Interesting topic.

[Jundo]

Re: TRAVEL DIARY: Jundo Goes To China

Hi Anista,

The reason chan methods and pure land methods have been mixed together is because they are just that - methods. They are not separate "schools" as in Japan, even if they can be called schools. It's not as clear cut. When you say "Amida Buddhism" it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking about the Japanese schools, which are definitely not the same as the Chinese practices you see going on there. Well, obviously you know this, but there may be people here not knowing this. So, FWIW.

Different medicines for different folks with different needs. Some may benefit from Zen, Rinzai Way or Soto, from Amida, from Jesus or from some other way. Some may mix and match (although like all medicines, it must be done skillfully or the combination may backfire). Here, we teach Shikantaza.

Some may practice Karate, some Ai-ki-do, some may create something new called "Kara-kido". Here, we practice Ai-ki-do alone.

Some may mix Ai-ki-do with Karate and come up with something good. Some may try to mix A-ki-do with Tea Ceremony and may a real mess of both arts! Here we practice Ai-ki-do alone ... or, rather, Shikantaza.

I think this is because married people with kids, like you and me, *are* lay people in Buddhist terminology. Even if you are a teacher, you are still a lay teacher. That has always been my understanding. This is a lay samgha, but that doesn't mean it is worth less. I wouldn't be here if I thought that. Please, correct me if I have misunderstood this entirely!

No, we are not ... nor are we not not! Japanese Buddhist clergy do not consider themselves "lay". When attending events on "the continent" in Asia, most will not concede to sit and stand with but the other clergy. In the case of our Sangha, the distinction of male-female-lay-ordained is simply dropped into emptiness. Some are Sentient Beings who function in the role of Clergy much as some Sentient Beings function in the role of bus driver, doctor or mechanic, spouse or parent when trained or functioning in those roles in life. Much as with the distinction between "male" and "female" Zen teachers and practitioners in the West, it is simply forgotten.

Much as occurred during the Reformation in Europe, changes are happening. The Buddha spoke of four categories for the Sangha, and it is still upheld in much of Continental Asia. The Buddha was simply a man of his times ... and Buddhism the product of conservative, traditional cultures ... and times change. Perhaps the Buddha was just wrong to see the distinction in the first place, as he was wrong about many minor things (though, fortunately for us, not the major things).

No, we do not ride at the back of the bus which has no front or back ... and even though one passenger plays the role of bus driver.

I do not think "devotional" and "worship" is the right word here. Pure land methods have faith at its core, but it cannot be likened to that of the Catholic church. It is an entirely different concept. Chanting amituofo can be, and is, considered as one meditation method. It's right concentration and right action all in one! As you know, I practice pure land methods as well, so this is an important question for me, and not in any way meant as criticism. I cannot stress this enough.

Yes, I hope you find what is to find in your Practice. I would say that many devotional or mystical Christians (like Fr. K) and Jews find much the same as you describe. Also, I would say that most of the folks I see when visiting temples from Bangkok to Tokyo are there to light incense to a Buddha statue for the same reason that an old lady in Boston lights a candle before a statue of Mary. They are not thinking of "meditation method" ... and both chant the Rosary in their own way.

There are some interpretations of Pure Land Teachings and Chan which served to smoothly work a merging of the two ... into Kara-ki-do. However, most of the folks visiting temples have no interest or even awareness of that ... and are simply there to worship their deity (yes, that is what Buddha is to most of these folks, and that is fine).

Gassho, J (neither priest nor lay nor man nor woman)

[Rev R]

Re: TRAVEL DIARY: Jundo Goes To China

Has it really been 5 years?

Good luck, have fun, pass along my congratulations to the family, and safe journey!

[Seishin the Elder]

Re: TRAVEL DIARY: Jundo Goes To China

This pilgrimage of Jundo's to China has proven itself to be fertile ground for some wonderful consideration and conversation, especially coming out of Ango and Rohatsu, as it has.

I believe that I have mentioned somehwere here before that I have been called a "Buddhedictine" by my dear cousin. At first I was amused by her amalgamation of these two "ways" into something that described what I looked like to her; but then as time went by, I have begun to embrace the title as something that has validity....for me. So I will not be starting a Buddhedictine School of Zen, al la Kara-kido as Jundo describes; but I recognize that more than one thing can occupy my spiritual ethos at a time, not working at odds but (for me) enhancing my spiritual life. If someone asks, I will tell (no Pentagon rules here !!!) them that both work for me; but I cannot and will not offer my pattern as a sine qua non for anyone else.

I have been fortunate in that my monastic training has incorporated both the Eastern and Western Christian disciplines and practices; both the Prayer of the Heart of the Greek Elders and Russian Staretzy and the Rule of Benedict based on the Desert Fathers have been at the root of my training and understanding of hte Christian monastic path. The Prayer of the Heart, or Jesus Prayer, developed in my heart and mind the ability to recognize a similar purpose and use of mantra and japa meditation such as the Tibetan "Om Mani Padme Hum" and "Namo Amitufo". Lectio Divina, meditation and comtemplation opened me to the possibility that sitting Shikantanza is not a waste of time, or opening myself to demonic forces, as some of my more conservative Christian brothers and sisters might espouse. But, I have to add this caveat, it fits with me and does not ruin me either as a Christian, a monk or a Buddhist because of the circumsatnces I have lived through for the past 40+ years in my monastic journey, and this is so also because of the wise guidance of my teachers along the way, who recognized that it could work for and in me: people like my Elder Seraphim, Abbot Herman, Jundo and Fajian.

Putting these things together works ...for me and perhaps some others . For each of us it is a different experience...no cookie-cutters here. Fr. Thomas Merton understood Buddhism in a very intellectual way that opened up his heart. I have taken the path of the heart to Buddhism and it has opened my mind. I think that somewhere in the Lord Buddha's 80,000 Ways the one I am on may be found, but I am not "looking" for it, I am simply trying to live and experience it as much as I am able in whatever time is left to me.

Gassho,

Seishin Kyrill

[Taigu]

Re: TRAVEL DIARY: Jundo Goes To China

Anista,

I cannot stress it enough that you drop your knowledge, your head filled with this and that, and come back to Anista. Anista before Anista. Anista before all this Buddhist stuff. Anista playing somewhere in the back of a building with red cheeks friends. ånista laughing, crying.Anista just being.

You know, you are much more and so much lighter when you sing the voiceless song of this, just this.


Take care


gassho


Taigu

[fanndrew]

Re: TRAVEL DIARY: Jundo Goes To China

Jundo,

Congratulations on your daughter again! On the subject of the mummified remains of Hui Neng, there were three former abbots mummified at Jiuhuashan, but the guide we were with couldn't explain the significance of the process.

Gassho,

Andrew

[Nindo]

Re: TRAVEL DIARY: Jundo Goes To China

Are we making a mistake in the West of stepping away from that devotional aspect of Asian Buddhism?
... Gassho, J

Maybe all those buddha statues and zen pictures available at North American garden centres and homewares shops mean that the devotional aspect is alive and well in the West?

[Jundo]

Re: TRAVEL DIARY: Jundo Goes To China

TRAVEL DAIRY III:

Hi Everyone,

Just back in Guangzhou from the '6th Ancestors Temple', Nanhua-si, about 3 hours by bumpy long distance bus from here. I just woke up at 4am, probably because of the early morning schedule at the temple the last couple of days, so good time to write this before heading back to bed.

First, let me thank Andy Ferguson for having arranged my time there with just a phone call to the temple director, Rev. Fa Qi. Andy, as some of you may know, runs a very unusual tour each year taking mostly Western Zen students around China to various famous Chan (the Chinese origin of 'Zen') temples such as Nanhua-si. The great translator of so many Zen texts, Red Pine (Bill Porter), sometimes accompanies Andy on these tours, and Andy is quite expert in the language and Buddhist culture of China himself (he is the author of the following book, which sets out many of the traditional legends and Koan stories of Zen http://www.amazon.com/Zens-Chinese-Heri ... 032&sr=8-1 ). If you have the money ('cause it isn't cheap to fly and wander around China for a few weeks), please have a look at his tour. I have heard good things from those who have participated in the past, and Andy promised to send information to us when he gets the 2012 tour set.

http://www.southmountaintours.com

I was very fortunate that I dropped in right during the last week of Nanhua-si's formal winter retreat, and all formalities were in evidence in the Zendo where we sat many times a day. A film crew from the temple's audio-visual department (yes, the 6th Ancestor also has gone online) came in to one of the sittings to film, so there is a good chance I will have a video to show you of this in the next week or two. I was very fortunate that about 150 people were sitting together in their Zendo for visitors, where I was sitting, including many novice priests from the temple's attached school (mostly teenage boys), some visiting nuns and priests, and many Chinese lay folks. I think I was the only foreigner. Yes, women sit and "Kinhin" apart from the men.

I think most folks know that Buddhism travelled from India to China before moving on to places like Japan and Korea and now the rest of the world. "Chan" is what resulted when Buddhism came to China ... developed in its own ways due to Chinese religious sensibilities and culture ... before moving on to Japan and becoming very Japanese (same for Korea, Vietnam etc., and now our cultures). What was amazing to me during my two days in their Zen Hall was, not the many small and larger differences in style, but how much had remained unchanged since the "split" into Chinese and Japanese branches many hundreds of years ago (and with limited interaction since). What they do in their Zendo is pretty much just what is done in a Japanese Zendo ... although with some interesting differences (different, but the same ... same yet different).

Some of the differences would only be interesting to a real "Zendo geek" ... such as small differences in Zendo procedures (e.g, they begin Zazen with strikes on the wooden han which hangs under the bell, not just with 3 rings of the bell like we do, and they do prostrations directly on the cold tile floor with no mat or Zagu! :shock: ). I won't bore folks with those.

The most unique part was perhaps their version of Kinhin, which consists of fast walking or running around and around the central altar, lines of men in concentric circles moving at high speed (men only ... the women walk/run around the periphery of the room), surrounded on the outside by a ring of monks with sword-shaped wooded "Keisaku" sticks ready to (gently) prod anyone who drifts sideways or begins to fall behind. In Japan too, Rinzai-style "kinhin" can be more of a fast walk or run, but I do not think anything like this. The experience is a bit like trying to walk Kinhin on a moving merry-go-round, and at the same time like trying to drive down an American highway and keep one's lane with traffic passing on all sides and a giant truck on one's bumper, while a bunch of guys with cattle prods make sure you stay in place! :shock: One get's dizzy, combined with a bit light headed with the shouting that happens at various moments. Suddenly, there is a crashing of the Keisaku sticks on the floor, and everyone freezes! There then follows a long ... long ... talk delivered by the Master (while everyone remains standing!) :|

The other big difference from Japan is that there was much less rigidity in the sitting styles. Don't misunderstand me, because there was as much formality in the Chinese hall as in Japan, but there was much more variation in the ways people sat ... with a great many different ways to hold the hands, and place the back. Some people were almost head down leaning on their knees. There was also greater freedom to change position mid-sitting, and some sitters would switch between postures from time to time. I think Taigu would approve. (It is a something of a Japanese cultural trait to be so focused on "the" proper physical form, something I have written about here):

viewtopic.php?p=49416#p49416

Here is a photo of some Chinese monks from Shaolin that may give you a feeling about what I mean ... and also that sword-shaped Keisaku stick!



Also, as you can see, the Chinese monks do grow their hair quite long compared to most (not all) Japanese priests ... including beards and such ... which I appreciated.

Also, it seems that the ways of meditation also had great variety. My sense was that, in some way, the great majority of people were meditating by focusing on a chant to Amida Buddha. Some may have been introspecting a Koan, and some engaging in some "Silent Illumination" close to Shikantaza. I cannot be sure, as my survey was very limited. As I mentioned last time, in China (and Vietnam), "Pure Land" Buddhism based upon faith and devotion to Amida Buddha has pretty much merged with Chan. This is true for both the Chinese Caodong (Soto) and Linchi (Rinzai) lines, which also have become almost indistinguishable. I have heard (in reading the great expert on Chinese Buddhism, Holmes Welch) that the only obvious difference now is that the Caodong teachers hang the wooden Han in the Zendo sideways! Otherwise, there is no way to tell one from the other in how things are conducted.

By the way, Anista ... if you would like to read one of the best descriptions of the early "love-hate" relationship (beyond love/hate, of course!) between Pure Land and Chan in China about 1000 years ago, and the philosophical "common ground" that was eventually found to allow their merging in this way ... it is the following. Unfortunately, I do not think all pages are available online, but it is worth finding if you are interested in the topic.

From Dispute to Dual Cultivation: Pure Land Responses to Ch'an Critics by David W. Chappell
http://books.google.com.hk/books?id=GwP ... &q&f=false

One more aspect to mention is that, while vegetarian meals were served in the Zendo ranging from Chinese "churro-like" donuts and porridge in the morning to steamed buns at night ... NO ORYOKI! No chanting before or after eating, let alone the formality of set gestures. One just scoffed down one's donut! This, again, may be a development of the Japanese emphasis on "Kata" and proper, set physical forms I linked to above. (No coffee, unfortunately, to go with the donuts ... but lots and lots of hot Chinese tea available during the short bathroom breaks).

As you can see in the photo above, Kesa do not seem to be worn in the Zendo when sitting ... only during chanting ceremonies in other halls. Instead, long robes are worn (I purchased a couple to bring back with me). Chinese monks at Nanhua-si seem to favor bright red Kesa too.

What else? Hmmm. Small stuff. It is simply amazing how much things have NOT changed even more in two traditions developing independently and in near isolation for centuries, with little interchange between them except now and then.

As to Nanhua-si itself, there is a huge construction going on funded by tremendous donations from newly rich ... and religious ... mainland and Hong Kong Chinese. They literally have a plan to build a huge park with dozens of buildings resembling the "Pure Land". Here is just some of what exists now, and it extends far beyond the photo for 150 acres ...



Oh, and Ven. Hui-Neng, the 6th Patriarch, continues his vigil of Zazen through the centuries. He is, of course, the central point of veneration of the temple ...



and the local community of Shaoguan too, which is hoping that he will be a big attraction for tourists. However, I did think the advertised "6th Ancestor ATM Card" was a bit much perhaps ...



I would have stayed a few days more, but Mina and Leon are flyng over tonight so needed to get back. Today, time for a quick visit to Master Bodhidharma's temple, back here in Guangzhou.

Gassho, J

[Hoyu]

Re: TRAVEL DIARY: Jundo Goes To China

Wow! Thank you for all the wonderful information Jundo Sensei.
Good to hear that Mina and Leon will soon arrive and you can proceed with the adoption process and bring Sada home

Gassho,
John

[Kaishin]

RE: TRAVEL DIARY: Jundo Goes To China

Cool stuff!

Sent from my SGH-i917 using Board Express

[Kyonin]

Re: TRAVEL DIARY: Jundo Goes To China

To see all those rituals and differences in cultures and practices must be a great learning experience.

Thanks for sharing, Jundo.

And it's great to know you'll be meeting your family soon. Hope everything goes smoothly!

[Jundo]

Re: TRAVEL DIARY: Jundo Goes To China

TRAVEL DAIRY IV:

Hey guys,

The big event today will be Mina and Leon's arrival this evening. Awaiting that, the day started with a short visit to a Zen temple said founded by Bodhidharma himself or his students upon his arrival in Guangzhou.

Hualin Temple was known as Xilai Temple until 1655, the place of worship commemorates the arrival of Bodhidharma (who was later to found Zen Buddhism in China) to Guangzhou from India around 525 AD. Legend has it that the temple was built soon a after the arrival of Dharma, hence the original name Xilai (literally "visitor from the west") Temple. After Bodhidharma headed north the temple was founded by followers in 527 AD. The Bodhidharma Hall in Hualin Temple stands as tribute to the great monk. However, the most impressive structure in the temple complex is the 500 Arhat Hall. Constructed in 1851, this hall houses 500 gold-painted carvings of arhats (those who have reached Nirvana), each with a unique pose and expression.

The Old Boy is featured as a massive Golden Buddha himself, and I wonder how Bodhidharma would feel about that!



The temple has an amazing collection of 500 Arhats, or Buddhist saints, each with his own eccentricities and personality. I always enjoy the 500 arhats because they are so human, and represent all the diversity of human personalities. These statues are recreations of the originals, which were destroyed by Mao's Red Guards during the Cultural Revolution (like so many temples in China which were destroyed or damaged during that period in the 1960's).




Here is a little information on the 500 Arhats (or Rakkan in Japanese) ...

The Japanese term "Rakan" is an abbreviation of the Japanese term "Arakan (é?¿ç¾?æ¼¢)," itself a translation of the Sanskrit term "Arhan." Also called "Ougu (æ??ä¾?)." The highest diciples of Shaka é??迦. In Theravada Buddhism, rakan are revered as having completed their training and ranked as mugaku ç?¡å*¦, "nothing else to learn," which indicates that they achieved the highest point that a disciple of Shaka could reach. However, in Mahayana Buddhism, rakan who aim at their own salvation are ranked below the Boddhisattva (Bosatsu 菩è?©). It is said that when Shaka entered nirvana (æ¶?æ§?), rakan were ordered to live in this world and protect the True Law (shouhou æ*£æ³?). Therefore, rakan are depicted in the guise of priests, with buddhist monks' robes (kesa è¢?è£?) and bald heads (teihatsu å??髪). ... Since the 9th century, numerous paintings and sculptures of rakan were produced in both China and Japan. Typically, they are depicted in a group of 16 or 18 (juuhachi rakan 十å?«ç¾?æ¼¢), and this may be expanded to 500

Five hundred arhats (rakan ç¾?æ¼¢), a Buddhist art subject developed in China featuring large numbers of Indian wise men usually accompanied by servants. There is no agreement among scholars as to the origin of this grouping ... , although several Chinese texts mention rakan as protective saints, who guard the Buddhist law until the coming of Miroku (å¼¥å?', Skt: Maitreya), the Buddha of the Future. The Chinese belief that the Five Hundred Luohan inhabited a peak beyond the Stone Bridge (Shakkyou ç?³æ©?) on Mt. Tiantai (Jp: Tendaisan 天台山) is probably an adaptation into popular Buddhism of Taoist legends about the locale as the home of immortals. Tang-period Chinese were also familiar with Indian legends of five hundred arhats believed to live on Mt. Buddhavanagiri near Rajagrha. It is not clear whether the number "500" refers to 500 specific individuals or simply indicates a large number. Beginning in the 5c large groups of rakan were depicted as seated, a pose that was also used for portrayal of independant rakan images.
http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/r ... ohan.shtml

Then, continuing the theme of the human personality, I spent the afternoon at a wonderful exhibition here on the structure and workings of the human brain. The exhibition has been travelling around the world, so be sure to catch it if it comes your way. As we talked about during the Rohatsu Retreat on the Heart Sutra, I do believe that traditional Buddhist beliefs on the origin of "self", thoughts and emotions were 1000 years ahead of their time, and science is now catching up!

http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/brain/about.php

Now ... off to the airport ...

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

Re: TRAVEL DIARY: Jundo Goes To China

By the way ... I am having some trouble to access Treeleaf here in China sometimes. Maybe the government knows how much we are trouble makers and has banned us?

In any event, as my wife and I head to another city tomorrow, there is a change I might lose the ability to connect here for a few days.

Gassho, J

[ghop]

Re: TRAVEL DIARY: Jundo Goes To China

By the way ... I am having some trouble to access Treeleaf here in China sometimes. Maybe the government knows how much we are trouble makers and has banned us?

:lol: :lol: :lol: Indeed.

Thanks for sharing your journey, and the pics. Interesting stuff! Just think, because of Treeleaf, somebody in Alabama is sharing your excitement for your new addition to the family. This is a special moment. Be safe and enjoy the journey.

gassho
Greg

[Jundo]

Re: TRAVEL DIARY: Jundo Goes To China

Just a note that Mina and Leon arrived safely. Today we are flying to Nanning in neighboring Guanxi to meet the baby tomorrow.

First ... some Dim Sum for lunch!

Gassho, J