Questions to the unsui

[Seiryu]

Re: Questions to the unsui

A wise person once said, (don't remember who at the moment)

"Intellectual understanding without direct experience is like having one's eyes open in the dark.
Direct experience without Intellectual understanding is like having one's eyes close in broad daylight."

Both intellectual understanding and direct experience; your eyes are open in the midst of the day.

Sometimes it is good to just sit with the questions, other times it is good to think them out.

Zen is not oppose to scholarly work. Zen is not opposed to anything.

Any way...

Happy Thanksgiving

[Jundo]

Re: Questions to the unsui

And, I might add, for those who aren't inclined to the odd intellectual discussion, there were no need to post here in the first place. There are several threads that may be more to your liking. Please do not see all threads here as mandatory. Please do not see enemies where there are none. Please do not see these questions as thinly veiled criticism.

Hey Anista, everyone ...

... for what it's worth, I liked the questions. There are times just to be silent, moving like clouds and water ... time to take a stab at some good Buddhist philosophy.

Actually, I thought all our 'unsui' did quite well in responding, each in their own way.

Gassho, J

[Tb]

Re: Questions to the unsui

Hi.

I once heard a story about an fellow who kept asking questions about everything when the sangha was meeting, so much that eventually the headmonk asked him why he did so, to which he replied:
- You know i know these matters, i know you know these matters, but there are people here that don't know these matters, and are to afraid to ask, and i'm asking for their sake...

Anista and anyone interested, i would like to see more of these sorts of questions, and more questioning and answering from everyone, not just the priests, but i would like it to be in the right time and in the right way if they are asked, and what that way is...

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Taigu]

Re: Questions to the unsui

Yes Anista, I missed your point if your point is to invite unsui (priests in training) to express their views about fine doctrinal points of Mahayana Buddhism and so we can get a clearer picture of what the people actively involved in Treeleaf think at this stage of their life-practice.

In the first post, you wrote :

I feel that it is important to know the different views of the unsui, since they somewhat represent this samgha (of course, we all do) and are seen quite a lot in the forum. It is interesting to see where our unsui are coming from regarding different Buddhist concepts. I realize that some have been unsui longer, and others have just started, but nonetheless, you probably have views in either way.

This thread may be intellectualizing. If this is not your cup of tea, I am sure there are other threads to your liking. If nobody wants to answer, no problem. Even no answer is an answer!

The questions are great but it is altogether a matter of timing as Jundo originally pointed out, of tone and style too.Fugen senses there is something weird or awckward about this process. You see, brother Anista, these questions are generally found in the mouth of a teacher, and your public and polite request, even if it is clearly not your intention, sounds like a kind of test and a challenge. The initiative of asking them to do so is not yours in my modest opinion.

As to really understanding where I come from ( I used to be a scholar and lecturer and drunk with it) and understanding in your-flesh-mind what my rambling about questions echoing answers already given... well... You are joining my club of the "miss the point guys". A warm welcome sweetie :P :wink:


May I suggest just bowing as a wonderful form of dropping the body-mind?
It is an excellent remedy for people like me, filled with pride and arrogance.
Could be a good thing to do, don't you think?




On the other hand, it is good to ask questions like that and give people the opportunity to think about their practice-experience.

a warm thank for this, anyway.


gassho


Taigu

[Jundo]

Re: Questions to the unsui

The questions are great but it is altogether a matter of timing as Jundo originally pointed out, of tone and style too.Fugen senses there is something weird or awckward about this process. You see, brother Anista, these questions are generally found in the mouth of a teacher, and your public and polite request, even if it is clearly not your intention, sounds like a kind of test and a challenge. The initiative of asking them to do so is not yours in my modest opinion.

Hi,

This will be one of the few times when my opinion is a little, tiny bit different from Taigu on such matters.

I think it important that new priests, even from the start, get used to responding to difficult doctrinal questions from people about our Traditions and Buddhist ways. That is so even though these "unsui" may never ever become teachers, or only become teachers several years down the road if then ... and even if the answers are just for who they are now ... and even if supposedly of little weight (a bit like asking a 1st year law student in the first semester of constitutional law about your death penalty case!). 8) Heck, if they ever become a "teacher" they may have even less opinion on these matters, or less willingness to share them!

What is more, anyone in this Sangha can ask anything at any time if a sincere question about Practice. Anista's questions were perfectly sound, basic and reasonable, I felt really. I would be curious about what these same (though then different, as we all change) folks respond to such questions a few years down the road. I know for a fact that they will not be the same people then as now.

By the way, silence also counts as a "response" to such things ... and is often the wisest response.

Gassho, J

[Taigu]

Re: Questions to the unsui

I am very happy that we disagree a little bit (we are almost always speaking each other s mind).
Thank you anyway Anista for making people think about their practice.

Gassho


Taigu

[disastermouse]

Re: Questions to the unsui

It looks like some non-unsui have responded to the questions, so I wondered if I could also submit answers as a means of correcting any misunderstandings I might have.

1. I think that neither option presented offers a right view. Does life end and that's it or is there rebirth? My answer is '"Yes". As Dogen says, "Firewood becomes ashes, ashes do not become firewood." And yet when there are ashes, where did the firewood go (My question, not Dogen's)? As Dogen says, it's not correct to think that ashes are the future of firewood. To me, this teaching by Dogen illuminates the truth of not-self. Ashes are not the future of firewood, but if there had been no firewood, there would be no ashes. Does that seem odd?

2. Awakening. I don't think awakening is something to be thought of as an end point. Are you awake now? Are things clearly as they are RIGHT NOW without the need to see them as one or many? Awakening isn't something attained, IMHO - when the sun shines on you, have you attained it or is it just that there are no clouds obscuring the sun in this moment?

3. If you say mind-only, it's just speculation, since in order to observe mind, there must be two. Once split in two, doesn't mind then become form, as now there are two things with distinctions between them? If this isn't form, it's not far off. Better not to say mind-only, if for no other reason than to avoid causing the illness you're trying to cure by saying 'mind-only'.

4. Can there be an enlightened butcher or bartender? Certainly. How about an enlightened mass murderer? Not likely. Both a bartender and a mass murderer could be viewed as precept-breakers, but they are hardly similar. The precepts are guides to avoid grievous harm to ourselves and others, but observing them doesn't prevent all harm.

5. I don't feel adequate to the task of defining prajna.

Gassho

Chet

[Al]

Re: Questions to the unsui

As a brand new unsui I don't know if it's really the right time to fill out this questionnaire, but I guess I'll just consider it part of my application.

1. What is your take on rebirth? To simplify in absurdum: only moment-to-moment, or previous lives?

Our karma changes every moment. Eventually, we all come to a moment where one lifetime ends and the next begins. That moment is no more special than any other.

2. What does awakening mean? How do you view that concept? How is that view comparable to the wider Mahayana corpus (does it differ or not for example)?

Awakening is seeing reality clearly without the haze of our perceptions, biases and stories. When the layers between us and reality are peeled away, we're no longer separate "selves."

3. Mind-only. Is this a teaching you follow, or not? That is, is it applicable to your practice?

N/A

4. How strict are the precepts? Can they be altered to fit different conditions? Can you be part of a trade, for example by selling meat, liquor, guns, and still follow the precepts? Can you drink, kill or abuse, and still follow the precepts? How does this tie into the concept of karma-vipaka?

I think the precepts follow a sort of mountains as mountains approach.

And yet another master said, “Thirty years ago, before I had studied Zen, I saw mountains as mountains and rivers as rivers. And then later, when I had more intimate knowledge, I came to see mountains not as mountains and rivers not as rivers. But now that I have attained the substance, I again see mountains just as mountains, and rivers just as rivers.”

At first it seems like the precepts have to be kept very strictly. Then after awhile it's easy to see all sorts of actions and their consequences that are technically outside the precepts but still fit within the spirit of the precepts. And then later the precepts are just the precepts again, expanding and contracting based on subject and circumstance.

5. What is your definition of prajna? Is this concept applicaple to your own practice?

Prajna is wisdom. Prajna can flow from teachers/environment and can be actively cultivated on the cushion.