Questions to the unsui

[anista]

Re: Questions to the unsui

Thank you to all who have answered the questions! Much obliged.

/anista

[Dosho]

Re: Questions to the unsui

Anista,

When I came to Treeleaf over 3 years ago I was so filled with opinions on this and that! I wanted to know how to do everything correctly! I wanted to know how to answer every question! I wanted, I wanted! I needed, I needed! PLEASE SOMEBODY...ANYBODY...TELL ME THE ANSWERS!!!! :cry:

As a result, I have primarily spent those 3+ years emptying my head of so much useless garbage and while I'm quite sure somewhere along the way Jundo will ask me to fill it again (or maybe he won't...I try not to speculate!), for now I will simply thank you for your questions and offer a promise to reply someday when I have something of interest to say.

That said, you may be waiting a long time, so please don't hold your breath.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Hogen]

Re: Questions to the unsui

I would say that is right. You are not the same "Risho" who was around at age 7, or age 17 ... let alone 1 hour ago and 1 breath ago. While the mind gives some sense of continuity by remembering images of the past ... from another perspective all things are constantly changing. and a "Risho" dies and a "Risho" is born in every moment. Thus, an aspect of our Zen Practice is to "go with the flow" as things constantly change.

No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man- Heraclitus

[Hogen]

Re: Questions to the unsui

When I came to Treeleaf over 3 years ago I was so filled with opinions on this and that! I wanted to know how to do everything correctly! I wanted to know how to answer every question! I wanted, I wanted! I needed, I needed! PLEASE SOMEBODY...ANYBODY...TELL ME THE ANSWERS!!!! :cry:

I had a similar issue, but mine was not knowing what the questions to be asked. Sitting back and observing sometimes answers questions you never thought of.

[Risho]

Re: Questions to the unsui

I would say that is right. You are not the same "Risho" who was around at age 7, or age 17 ... let alone 1 hour ago and 1 breath ago. While the mind gives some sense of continuity by remembering images of the past ... from another perspective all things are constantly changing. and a "Risho" dies and a "Risho" is born in every moment. Thus, an aspect of our Zen Practice is to "go with the flow" as things constantly change.

No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man- Heraclitus

Yes and no. I think this statement needs to be qualified. If things were always changing, which I agree they are to some extent, and they never maintained any qualities of what they were, it would be impossible to identify things. Oh wow, the stop sign changed... what does it mean now? Oh you changed, who are you?

[Hogen]

Re: Questions to the unsui

I would say that is right. You are not the same "Risho" who was around at age 7, or age 17 ... let alone 1 hour ago and 1 breath ago. While the mind gives some sense of continuity by remembering images of the past ... from another perspective all things are constantly changing. and a "Risho" dies and a "Risho" is born in every moment. Thus, an aspect of our Zen Practice is to "go with the flow" as things constantly change.

No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man- Heraclitus

Yes and no. I think this statement needs to be qualified. If things were always changing, which I agree they are to some extent, and they never maintained any qualities of what they were, it would be impossible to identify things. Oh wow, the stop sign changed... what does it mean now? Oh you changed, who are you?

not all things change so much they lose or alter identity. not all change has to be significant to be seen or realized. rust, decay, aging, growing rarely happens to the sight or touch. Our emotional growth and understanding constantly is in flux despite outward or even inward observation.

[Hans]

Re: Questions to the unsui

Hello Anista,

let me briefly say that I own (and have actually read) far too many good books on Buddhadharma for my own good...so I could just give you wonderfully and academically correct answers through browsing through my bookshelf, but that surely wouldn't be in the interest of this exercise. Instead I'd rather tell you what the questions mean to me personally in the light of my own limited life experience.


1. What is your take on rebirth? To simplify in absurdum: only moment-to-moment, or previous lives?

It took me too long to dis-attach myself from culturally force-fed Christian assumptions regarding the existence of a soul for me to be eager to embrace another belief...in the sense of blindly believing without proper evidence or personal experience....and even personal experience is not all that precious sometimes. On an intellectual level I deny re-birth in the sense of one individual's actions and death leading to the birth of another particular individual through invisible means. Strangely enough, on a heart level it makes more and more sense as time goes by In my free time I work as a hospice volunteer so I do know what death and dying looks like. Let me use a quote from an anonymous AIDS patient from the 1980s US in order to get my position across: "In the face of death, philosophies and religions melt like ice cubes in the fire."



2. What does awakening mean? How do you view that concept? How is that view comparable to the wider Mahayana corpus (does it differ or not for example)?
Clearly seeing things for what they are - beyond attraction or aversion.

3. Mind-only. Is this a teaching you follow, or not? That is, is it applicable to your practice?
I do not "blindly" follow any teaching, but have decided for Soto-Zen to be my basic road map on the everlasting trip called awakening. Yogacara/Hua-Yen Buddhism has a lot of very important points to make, but they are but components of the wider tapestry that has developed into the Zen tradition I am now a part of. I value certain Dzogchen and Mahamudra teachings (minus the cultural bias) very highly too, if they happen to cross my way...the same can be said of Rumi and people like him...but at the end of the day the great and secret show in my case is called Shikantaza and Dogen is my homeboy (though I don't like his personality very much).

4. How strict are the precepts? Can they be altered to fit different conditions? Can you be part of a trade, for example by selling meat, liquor, guns, and still follow the precepts? Can you drink, kill or abuse, and still follow the precepts? How does this tie into the concept of karma-vipaka?

I am a rather othdox fellow in some ways and would have made a great inquisitor in the late Middle Ages. You reap what you sow. Ignore the precepts at your own peril. I am of the strong opinion that people (and especially westerners) should eat 80% less or no meat at all, should drink 80% less liquor and sell no guns. The dharma (and that includes the precepts) is an option. Nobody is forced to follow into the footsteps of the awakened one. On a relative level we have a choice. Most persons however are kidding themselves when they still eat all the meat they can get their hands on, still drink the same amount of alcohol and still vent their violent anger more or less the same way they always have - and then think they are properly practising only because they can get their asses on a cushion regularly. Deeply and truthfully looking at the reluctance to follow certain precepts is a first step towards truly applying them.


5. What is your definition of prajna? Is this concept applicaple to your own practice?

Prajna is our innate ability to see through our own BS in a way that goes beyond mere intellectualisation and cuts right to the chase - the marrow of the great matter of life and death.



Hope this exhibitionist list of answers helps


Gassho,


Hans Chudo Mongen

[Taigu]

Re: Questions to the unsui

Anista, you totally miss my point... and how different could it be ?

take care

gassho


Taigu

[Jundo]

Re: Questions to the unsui

Jundo and Taigu are the ones who choose the unsui. They have given the definition. I guess the question would be better addressed to them.

/anista

Oh, now here's a question simple to answer!

The term "unsui" means a novice monk undertaking Zen training, and is said to come from a Chinese poem ... "To drift like clouds and flow like water." Kyogen Carlson writes:

It comes, originally, from the phrase "gyoun-ryusyu", or

"drifting clouds, flowing water." Neither clouds nor water insist upon

any particular form, for they take shape according to conditions. Clouds

attach to nothing, and so drift freely across the sky. Water twists and

turns on its way down hill in complete accord with the path it must

follow. The flowing of the water has the strength to move mountains,

while the drifting of the clouds is utterly free. In these qualities we

have a perfect description of the Zen mind. Just as clouds cling to

nothing, floating free and changing with the wind, acceptance of change

is the essence of nonattachment and expresses the perfect freedom of

meditation. Flowing water follows its course naturally, without

resistance or hesitation. This lack of resistance describes the

willingness at the heart of a true commitment to Zen practice, which

like water, has the strength to move mountains. To become a monk, an

Unsui, requires ordination. By its very nature, ordination means a deep

commitment to the form of practice we call Zen Buddhism. It also means a

commitment to a teacher, and to a Sangha, or community of fellow

trainees. Ordination means a commitment to a life of training in

nonattachment, so right from the very beginning, the concepts of

nonattachment and commitment are present together in Zen teaching.

That, right there, may be the best attitude toward some of these BIG questions.

The rest of Kyogen's essay is pretty good too.

http://www.universalquest.com/driftingcloud.htm

Gassho, J

[Nindo]

Re: Questions to the unsui

At the beginning of Bendowa, Dogen says of himself that after returning from China

I drifted the while like a cloud, finding lodging as a floating reed does...

(Mt. Shasta translation)

Is this referring to the same idea as unsui?

[Jundo]

Re: Questions to the unsui

At the beginning of Bendowa, Dogen says of himself that after returning from China

I drifted the while like a cloud, finding lodging as a floating reed does...

(Mt. Shasta translation)

Is this referring to the same idea as unsui?

Hah! Well, one doesn't want to just drift aimlessly and lost either, failing to find one's True Home.


Gassho, J

[lorax]

Re: Questions to the unsui

Enven though this thred was susposed to be between Anista and our new novist monks, like other members
Treeleaf, I can not just sit and not express my perceptions and feelings on the subject.

When Anista first proposed specific questions of practice and beliefs to our new novist monks I felt unsettled. The tone of the questions, his response to one of our Sangha’s members when she noted a spelling difference in the word Shangha or Samgha” all noted years of studious endeavor in learning Buddhist traditions and practice. That is to be commended, however I still was uncomfortable. Why was a learned student of the Buddha’s teaching causing this discomfort? Then I recalled a much repeated story from the Amitabha Sutra about a monk named Suddhipanthaka. I always felt close to this story due to my life long struggles with a learning disability. Like Suddhipanthaka, I understood concepts but could not relate them in test situations or in confrontations. I had to develop by other methods. Like Suddhipanthaka, I learned from life. I learned by sweeping floors.

I believe this is why Anista's questions disturbed me. He has asked our new novist monks to respond to specific questions, framed by his intellectual understanding. I personally do not know all of our new novists but I do feel they each approach their learning of the dharma and developing their practice in their own way. Some perhaps by study and some perhaps by their life experiences. We each follow our own path, even under the Soto Zen traditions and may not be able to articulate our understanding and practice by some precise standard or to some specificly crafted questions.

I think we must step back and if there is a need to evaluate our new novist monk's practice lets us do as I belive Taigu stated by simply observing their lives. At least for me, my practice is my life. With the help of Jundo, even the most gulling events are simply sweeping the floor.

Jim

[anista]

Re: Questions to the unsui

Anista, you totally miss my point... and how different could it be ?

take care

gassho


Taigu

Taigu, I got your point just fine. You seemed to miss mine, though.

Not much to worry about.

Take care,

/anista

[anista]

Re: Questions to the unsui

Hm, I really don't see what the problem is with this thread. The questions were directed at the unsui, because I was curious.

This wasn't an exam. This wasn't part of a test. This wasn't supposed to be the subject of discussion (although feel free to discuss anyway!). This wasn't supposed to be about formal, scholarly answers. I already know those. I was interested in the views of the unsui, and how they felt about these subjects (which are quite common in Mahayana buddhism I might add: they are nothing mystical, nothing special). But to me, these are interesting questions. These are interesting answers. No matter if you choose to answer formally, or just answer "don't know". It doesn't matter if the unsui choose to not answer, that too, is interesting. It's a friendly Q&A, also quite common in the Buddhist community. Some have chosen to answer, and for that I am thankful. Some, chose to not answer, for that I am thankful. Thank you all for your practice.

And, I might add, for those who aren't inclined to the odd intellectual discussion, there were no need to post here in the first place. There are several threads that may be more to your liking. Please do not see all threads here as mandatory. Please do not see enemies where there are none. Please do not see these questions as thinly veiled criticism.

Sorry for the inconvenience. Obviously, this is not the samgha in which it is OK to ask these kind of questions. And that's OK. I will stick to the poetry section for a while, while all the negative effects of this thread plays out, not contributing in this thread anymore. Hopefully, that will help.

May we all realize the Buddha land!

/anista

[Jiki22]

Re: Questions to the unsui

Questions:

1. What is your take on rebirth? To simplify in absurdum: only moment-to-moment, or previous lives?
2. What does awakening mean? How do you view that concept? How is that view comparable to the wider Mahayana corpus (does it differ or not for example)?
3. Mind-only. Is this a teaching you follow, or not? That is, is it applicable to your practice?
4. How strict are the precepts? Can they be altered to fit different conditions? Can you be part of a trade, for example by selling meat, liquor, guns, and still follow the precepts? Can you drink, kill or abuse, and still follow the precepts? How does this tie into the concept of karma-vipaka?
5. What is your definition of prajna? Is this concept applicaple to your own practice?

here are my answers :
1. I life now (i try to do so) and dont look back nor forward
2. eat when you eat, sleep when you sleep, sit when you sit, nothing more nothing less.
3. who's mind? what is in the mind?
4. very strict. you will be punished if you make errors...
5. i'm to stupid to understand the true meaning of it.

i'm not very clear in my answers,
to protect others who don't fully understand it,
and i'm a beginner,
so they will be all wrong.