POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

[Shogen]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

There once was a spider that possed as a fly and easily trapped its prey. The fly was called Praxis.

We should never ban and present ourselves as an open armed sangha. Learn to deal with adversity through good judgement and choice of actions. If someone slings " Bizantine Rubbish" (Taigu) then don't pay homage to it by offering your time and mental capacity in replying. If there is no food for a fly or spider it will either relocate or wither. So lets not ban and become elitist. I say ban not.
Gassho Shogen

[Shokai]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

Good one Zak _/_

[Taigu]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

Shogen,

I do understand where you come from and really see the point of helping people as much as we can ( which I do relentlessly in my other jobs). Sometimes it is impossible to provide the help needed because the person doesn't want to be helped, or is unable to follow simple directions. On top of this, some people may abuse the internet in many ways: choosing to hide, changing their response according to the situation, sharing would be useless knowledge, making false accusations...In that case and for many centuries the answer is to ban. It is not ideal, not totally right, it also shows our shortcomings and difficulty to deal with certains issues ( It is never easy). And there you are. I don't like it, Jundo doesn 't like it, nobody really likes it. Praxis may come back at any time once he-she changes his-her attitude. The alternative is the "wild" stream of comments you have on Brad's blog.
If someone slings:" Byzantine rubbish" it is because the point : "life is too short" has not been heard. I am offering plenty of time and my limited mental capacity in replying, nevertheless I have learned a lesson, since I have three jobs and not enough time for myself (you cannot believe what it means to have weekly dokusan almost daily after 11 hours of teaching and 4 hours commuting a day) I generally do not waste the few minutes of freedom left. Now , I am loosing a precious time not being with my family at the breakfast table, but I am also not loosing it: for you are somebody that I ma sure can understand what I am writing here.

Thank you for being open

gassho


Taigu

[Ray]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

Before I read through everybody posts carefully my initial reaction was that this dude needs to be kicked out. However, after reading everybody's posts there seems to be some valid reasons to give this dude one last chance. However, at the end of the day he has wasted highly highly highly valued and respected time from jundo and taigu when instead of spending so much time and energy on this particular individual it could have been spent answering genuine posts and discussions or maybe just sitting time. If there is going to be only one last chance it should really be only one last chance.

Whatever decision is made I am sure it will be done through a deep inner wisdom and will result in the correct one.

Gassho

Ray

[Jundo]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

Before I read through everybody posts carefully my initial reaction was that this dude needs to be kicked out. However, after reading everybody's posts there seems to be some valid reasons to give this dude one last chance. However, at the end of the day he has wasted highly highly highly valued and respected time from jundo and taigu when instead of spending so much time and energy on this particular individual it could have been spent answering genuine posts and discussions or maybe just sitting time. If there is going to be only one last chance it should really be only one last chance.

Whatever decision is made I am sure it will be done through a deep inner wisdom and will result in the correct one.

Gassho

Ray

Hi,

Let me just say that the doors are never closed here, although it is a "Practice Dojo" ... like a Karate or Ai-ki-do Dojo ... and at a certain point we have to keep some order and get down to teaching a certain method (or "non-method" to be 'Zenny' about it). We can discuss why we do a certain "kick" a certain way ... and we can have some folks demonstrate how they wished we would kick, think it would be better if we kicked, or how they learned to kick at some other school. We can also kid, debate and joke around in the coffee room.

But at the end of the day, we cannot allow too much disturbance to the classroom process, and we need to teach how we "kick in this school" of this Dojo (or "non-kick" to be all 'Zenny' about it. We "non-kick the non-enemy"). Coffee break must be over, and we get back to the mat.

Let me just say again, though, that the main issue for me with Praxis was not his asking "tough questions". In fact, "tough questions" are welcome, and this place and its 'Karate teachers' would not be worth their salt if they could not handle "tough questions". Nor was it particularly what seemed like a dodging, toying and "just stirring up controversy to make controversy" attitude when we tried to respond. (That did play a large role when it continued for many days though).

It was also much the fact that the fellow never contacted me to confirm identity information he provided and which I could not confirm, plus tips I was getting that someone malicious may be "behind it" and trying to stir up some trouble. I tend to doubt that but, given the lack of cooperation, I still cannot be totally sure what was going on and have mixed signals. I still do not understand completely.

However, the doors of this Dojo are always open to anyone wishing to learn our non-method for non-kicking.

Gassho, Jundo

PS - Taigu and I are saying about exactly the same thing, me feels ... he in his 'Continental way', me in my 'Yankee way'. 8)

[Shogen]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

Taigu
Your teachings are way too valuable to be compromised by a pesky old fly. No matter how many flies we swat another will always take its place. So swat and move on.
Thank you for allowing me to see this situation through your eyes.
Issues like these will always come and go but time lost with your family can never be replaced. Please find more time for them.
As always, and I'm sure the rest of Treeleaf will agree, we deeply appreciate the time, effort, and patience both You and Jundo offer us all.
Gassho

[Myoku]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

Taigu ...
As always, and I'm sure the rest of Treeleaf will agree, we deeply appreciate the time, effort, and patience both You and Jundo offer us all.

_()_
Peter

[Heisoku]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

Each time I find myself opening a recorded zazenkai (which is mostly these days) or a talk and Jundo or Taigu appear, I find myself smiling with happiness. I can't help it it just happens... People who can do this are real treasures! Thank you Jundo and Taigu your all your teaching and inspiration.

[Sleeps]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

I might only understand interdependent existence-arising intellectually, but it would seem that if I was to act on this person causing a problem, and I viewed "them" as if it was my own arm, and my arm had trouble healing, I'd only amputate it as a last resort before it would risk killing me. Maybe praxis needs more time to find their "grove" here? and if something really needs to be done, would completely banning him be the only option? Perhaps a short term ban? Perhaps something else?

I do agree that something should be done though, internet forums are very difficult to run regardless of the topic, people try to derail things on purpose just because they can (trolls), I suspect buddhist forums go downhill fast because mods have a problem negotiating preventing harm and dealing with a disruptive user because they are worried they might appear, "judgmental" so instead turn into ineffective doormats.

[Sleeps]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

I read over some of the posts he made, what if he simply doesn't realize he's causing harm? can't "open up", it took me forever before I came to this place to simply figure out that speaking from a hostile mindset isn't a good idea. If this isn't the case here but might be in the future, I really hope some time is paid to the fact that lots and lots...and lots of people might and do have a hard time gaining insight into something like that.

Jundo, you said you went out of your way to defend treeleaf. The internet is a place where people feel safe and feel more inclined to act on whims, right now there is something called "trolling". Trolls are the distillation of conflict, they don't even care about being right or wrong, just inciting conflict and intense negative responses for their own amusement. It's a complete waste of time in my and most others opinions that know this to not bother engaging them at all since that's just "feeding the trolls". I understand the desire to correct wrong perceptions but from what you said about him possibly being here just to start stuff, nine times out of ten these days it's a troll and not worth the effort.

[Kaishin]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

Maybe praxis needs more time to find their "grove" here? and if something really needs to be done, would completely banning him be the only option? Perhaps a short term ban? Perhaps something else?

Sleeps, just in case you missed this post:

I just had a nice chat with Praxis, and I believe the matter is closed at his request.

However, feel free to continue the discussion if anyone wants, as it is important to general Sangha policy and management.

Gassho, J

So basically the issue has been resolved. Wasn't sure if you were under the impression considerations were still being made, or just sharing your opinions.

[Sleeps]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

oh alright, tired and running on fumes here. but yeah, I still think it might be helpful regardless. especially the troll thing.