POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

**Jiki22** · 10-13-2011, 02:14 PM

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

i'm just in,
but
the only thing i can say,
if i may
without attacking anyone.

There is a list of rules in here
that I had to read yesterday as newcommer
It tells what is possible and not
if we can see what was ok or not ok by those rules
and so you can decide.

why we have these rules otherwise?
hopefully it is usefull

**andyZ** · 10-13-2011, 02:14 PM

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

Originally posted by Jundo

Originally posted by praxis

Dear Jundo,

Yes, I admit, everything you say is true and I apologize for lying to your community.

I'm still curiouse about those blogs though, would you mind posting links? If nothing else it would help to show your community the depth of my depravity.

I am very sorry for this, but it strikes many of us that you are just playing games.

As much as I tried to stay out of these topics and be impartial, I have to agree with this statement. Judging by Praxis's the latest comments I have to question his intentions of sincere Zen practice which is the main purpose of this site. Yes, this is democracy and everyone is entitled to his/her opinion but Jundo and Taigu are doing this for free, spending their time giving the teaching. I don't think they have to deal with empty accusations, which take up a lot of valuable time and attention.

**Shokai** · 10-13-2011, 02:28 PM

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

With all due respect and without prejudice, I would whole heartedly second this motion.
I have just spent the past two hours reviewing recent and older posts and which confirm a consensus that this is a Sangha where members come to learn and grow, not a discussion forum in where individuals play mind games or practice deceit.

On Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:54 am Praxis wrote;

Hello all, I'm your newest member! Well, maybe not depending on when you read this post.

Anyway, I've been interest in Zen for many years, since junior college when I read Siddhartha for a civilizations class. But enough about German romanticists, I've practiced for about 2 months in an actual brick and mortar Zen temple in LA, the Hungry Ghost Temple of the Hakuyu Taizan Maezumi Roshi lineage. They brag of a high attrition rate there and I proved useful to that right. So here I am!

As suggested by Jundo I just finished with part 1 of the Zazen for Beginners - Zazen for Beginners. What a delight, the blender action was no less than masterful. Funny but also to good effect. Not sure how long it will take me to get through the whole series.

Nice virtually meeting you. _/_

User avatar
praxis

Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:14 pm

Perhaps we should all have looked up the word "praxis" @ Wikipedia http://bit.ly/ZQN0U from where I suspect his misguided actions have spawned; It may have twigged us to some of his shenanigans

Anyone who has admittedly conducted himself in the manner we see in his 60 posts to date is not being true to himself and perhaps we should all get out and polish up our our metta practice in his direction.

**Seiryu** · 10-13-2011, 02:52 PM

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

When we ask a question, we are essentially showing that there is something we do not know. It’s a very humbling thing to do, to go up to someone and ask. Yet, to ask a question means we do not have an answer. So when the teacher gives us an answer, we should take it and sit with it. Not accept it blindly, not believe it just because the teacher said it, but to sit with it and see if our experience confirms it or not.

Buddha said:

“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”

If we get an answer and say; “no, that can’t be right” or “no I think it is this” then were we even asking a question to begin with? Were we asking a question, or looking for a confirmation to an idea we were already holding?

To paraphrase what someone wise once said:

One doesn’t need to look for answers, one needs to simply understand the questions.

I think a lot of good discussion came out from the Praxis' forums. At the same time, a lot of running in circles as well. I am not in a position to say who should stay and who should go. But I do feel that as a Sangha, the harmony and overall integrity should be preserved, otherwise we will become just another Buddhist forum.

Deep Metta to all.

**Nindo** · 10-13-2011, 03:12 PM

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

Jundo, I'd like to see those "other blogs", and the forum that started all of this. Where are they, please?

**Dosho** · 10-13-2011, 03:13 PM

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

Hi all,

Based on the response that Praxis gave to Jundo which began this thread, I cannot tell if Praxis still wishes to be a member of this community. If he does, I would simply request that he tell us why he would wish to remain. When he came here I found him to be a sincere new member who introduced himself, posted on various threads, and even committed to Ango practice. However, once he posted the thread on criticism, it seemed to become his sole outlet and I am curious as to why.

I would rather not kick anyone out of Treeleaf and would sincerely like to give Praxis the opportunity to say why he'd like to be a member of this sangha. However, if he does not then I truly wish him well and hope that he finds what he is looking for elsewhere.

Gassho,
Dosho

**Rev R** · 10-13-2011, 03:14 PM

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

Don't really know how much my opinion is worth being more a hermit than a full member, therefore I will abstain from the vote. However, I would like to submit that Praxis be given one final opportunity to speak openly and honestly and that all the information regarding this incident be made known to the membership.

~Rod

**Shokai** · 10-13-2011, 03:38 PM

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

I must apologize if I conveyed the idea that I agree with a "throw the bum out" type of action. I was merely seconding the action stated in the title of this thread. I fully endorse the policy laid out in the Ethics Board complaint thread referenced by Jundo. I donnot agree that Praxis should be dismissed without due process. However, I do feel he owes this Sangha full disclosure of his actions and some form of atonement.

Raphael wrote (and I agree);

I am not in a position to say who should stay and who should go. But I do feel that as a Sangha, the harmony and overall integrity should be preserved, otherwise we will become just another Buddhist forum.

and this is the sentiment that showed in all of the posts I reviewed earlier this morning

**Hans** · 10-13-2011, 04:08 PM

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

Hello,

I'm just trying to sum up my own thoughts right now.

Internet communication has a lot of PROs and CONS, advantages and disadvantages...as we all know and can experience first hand through the current "circumstances". Personally I still have absolutely no clarity as to what this whole situation is all about. On the one hand there are loads of things one could intepret in certain ways based on the way Praxis has been writing his posts...however those interpretations could all be dead wrong.

I just never got the "vibe" from Praxis that he was seriously considering joining the Treeleaf Sangha. The fact that membership of Treeleaf is a bit of a grey area (where does the forum stop...where does the Sangha begin...other than in one's heart?) doesn't necessarily help.

Personally I was/am under the impression that Praxis simply seems to think that Jundo's take on the precepts and some past interactions of Jundo's on some forums are a major point worthy of extreme criticism, but instead of just saying this straight out loud, a pseudo discussion was initiated with the aim to make some kind of point.

And yes, my reading of this situation could well be wrong and completely off the mark. Praxis being such an anonymous presence surely doesn't help, because otherwise I could have seen that question within a wider context of a Treeleaf member's personality.

It just feels like someone just urinated into a pool that that person never had the intention of using as his own pool anyhow. A pool can be calm, there can be waves, water splashing etc. - any sangha has ups and downs, and yes lo and behold, people even disagree on the Treeleaf forum from time to time. But Treeleaf is more than just a forum , it is a sangha, and therefore people (including me) naturally would like to keep their place of refuge a harmonious one at the end of the day, which doesn't mean one would be justified to put these same people in the same class of people as a "lynch mob".

Pseudo-discussions filled with hints of innuendo and cross postings on other forums do not help. And guess what Praxis, we've all known that Jundo was a human being for a long time. If you have a message, please just state it clearly, than all of us adults can individually make an informed decision and act accordingly. If you just have an issue with Jundo, just send him a PM please.

No, I wouldn't throw you out yet, but I'd advise you to search for your true inner motivation behind all this.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

**Seiryu** · 10-13-2011, 04:09 PM

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

Originally posted by praxis

Originally posted by Shokai

However, I do feel he owes this Sangha full disclosure of his actions and some form of atonement.

Shokai,

I've just posted this morning in the 'criticism' topic to try and clear up any remaining misunderstandings.

I've actually considered some kind of meaningful atonement this morning but I'm not sure what is practical. If anyone has any suggestions please post them. Maybe sending incense or something to Jundo & Taigu's temple in Japan?

You have already started to atone.

To atone, to ask for forgiveness, has nothing to do, essentially with another person forgiving you or not. It has to do, fundamentally, on whether or not you can forgive yourself, accept yourself, and move on from there.

**ChrisA** · 10-13-2011, 04:31 PM

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

Hi Praxis. My name is Chris Amirault. You can read a lot more about me here.

I agree with Rev R and Dosho; I want to hear more from you. I've moderated internet forums for a very long time, and I know enough to know that I have no idea who you are based on 60-odd posts and a cartoon fly.

So, to that end, I urge you to rethink this atonement business. Instead, I invite you to:

-- tell us who you are, real name, all that;
-- participate in a collaborative, sharing manner in the forums;
-- reflect back to the community on what happened; and
-- sit with it, and us, all.

Frankly, I think that you have a lot to teach us if you're game to join. Around here, we tend to assume that we all have a lot to teach each other. It's unlikely, however, that we'd be able to learn from you unless you could approach us with the same attitude. Believe me, there are many thoughtful, compassionate teachers here.

One final thought. Despite what you may have thought when you joined, you've entered a pretty self-reflective community, and that includes the two teachers here. I'd urge you to watch some of the videos by Taigu and Jundo for ample evidence. Of course, like the rest of us, they have their human foibles. As someone who has engaged directly with the teachers about some of the issues you raised, I've deepened my commitment to the sangha here and to the teachers as well as a result of those engagements.

I've learned not to judge my occasional missteps as indications of fundamental flaws in myself or my self, and I try to do the same concerning the missteps of others. It takes some sitting, though, I'll tell you that.

Many of us are part of a google+ group that sits zazen via the hangout feature, and I encourage you to join and grab a zafu with us.

So, in short, I'm eager to hear more from you, Praxis. If you choose to buzz off --

-- I wish you well and hope that you find some way to interact with others that's less deceitful and manipulative. If you choose to stay, well then:

Welcome!

**Shokai** · 10-13-2011, 04:55 PM

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

Exactly, full disclosure _/_

p.s. Chris? really!! to buzz off --

-- :lol: :lol:

**ChrisA** · 10-13-2011, 05:08 PM

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

C'mon: I couldn't resist!

I confess that, at times, this has reminded me of that great video in which the Dalai Lama explains what he'd do with a mosquito:

[youtube]

[/youtube]

**Hoyu** · 10-13-2011, 05:14 PM

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

I think I've already made my feelings clear on this one. And with his own admission of guilt in his testimony as given here:

praxis wrote:
Yes, I admit, everything you say is true and I apologize for lying to your community.

I say, case closed!
Now where is that gavel?...........

Found it!

Originally posted by praxis

:wink:

POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

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