POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

[Ekai]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

Due to my crazy schedule, I have not had time to follow what has been going on with Praxis. I will read through the forum and post my input soon.

Thanks,
Jodi

[Kyonin]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

I think Praxis has caused a lot of distress as it is.

He has had a lot of chances to cool himself up and catch with the humane and metta spirit of Treeleaf, but instead he has been aggressive and plain rude. We all have been affected by his behavior.

With that said, I think he deserves a chance. Just one.

If he wants to be part of the sangha, he must accept the etiquette and rules we have and have constructive and skillful conversations. If he fails to comply, well, I think he might be happier on some other community.

We are here to learn and grow and he has given us a chance to learn from him. It's only fair to give him a chance to learn too.

But that's just me.

[Jiken]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

I agree with Dosho and Chris. Show sincerity, willingness to stay and some disclosure as to who you are - if not to us then to Jundo or Taigu

[ChrisA]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

What or who here do you see needs reforming, Praxis? What is the ointment in which you so insistently must be the fly?

[ChrisA]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

Well, I'd suggest it's the first, and not the last, step. Again, I invite you to sit with, share among, and get to know us.

[Hoyu]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

Atonement is the only thing left for me to do here, Chris.

That's not nessicarily so Praxis. People are asking, and have been for some time(!) for you to show your sincerity by explaining who you are and why you want to be a member here. By saying atonement is the only thing you need to do here implies that you don't feel peoples other requests are wothwile actions. Please don't take this as an attack I'm just confused?

[Jundo]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

Hi,

Allow me a side issue ...

Our Sangha always handles issues like this out in the open, and lets the sunshine in on the decision making process. Let me tell you one reason it is very important to do so:

There are people in certain corners of the Buddhist-blogosphere who really hate this Treeleaf place, me and Taigu. It is hard for me to fathom why they hate this place and us so much, but it seems that such is the nature of some people ... even some Buddhist people. There is, unbelievably, a certain group of "Buddhists" out there who have congregated around the blog of my Dharma Brother Brad and his "punk" persona, and take advantage of the fact that he never moderates his blog. They really really do not care for Treeleaf, Taigu and me, and regularly take shots at us or even start rumors and trouble. Why?

Well, one reason is that, until a couple of years ago, I had the tendency to go out into the internet world and confront this group of folks anytime they said something untrue about this place or Taigu and me, which just stirred them up more and made it worse like gas on a fire! I don't get why or how they can be so "angry" and be "Buddhists", but they are ... and they think that any soft spoken, "let's be peaceful" type Buddhists are fake. They say that Treeleaf is fake. Some also carry resentments because they think I was disloyal to Nishijima Roshi and Brad when I started speaking out a few years ago on some issues in our Sangha including 93 year old Nishijima Roshi's increasingly obvious age related dementia, and criticized Brad for some of his questionable behavior a few years ago (Brad has since settled down a lot). There were some other events too.

Anyway, to give you an example, the last time we had to ask a member to leave (that was "Chet" in an earlier incarnation ... not the Chet we know now ... always temporary, and he was having personal problems. We made sure he knew at the time that he was welcome to come back, and he did come back!), one very malicious fellow on the internet tried to make a scandal out of it about Treeleaf "censorship" and booting out members who dissented from Taigu and my reign of terror. I made the mistake of going to "reason" :roll: with the fellow. You can read that whole thing here.

http://rebloggingbradwarner.blogspot.co ... r-for.html

As you read on in there, the fellow admits that he writes to make a big splash because he has some personal issues in his life and it helps him relieve that stress, that he knows he muckrakes and exaggerates, that he is proud to have the nickname "the Zen Glenn Beck" etc. Further, maybe half of our current Treeleaf members were also members then and personally witnessed the events about "Chet", so will know the true story. (I hope our other members who came after have been around Treeleaf long enough to see how ridiculous the descriptions of us are compared to the Treeleaf they know, just tripe and fish wrappings trying to make a scandal).

Of course, when one gets down in the mud with hogs, one will tend to get muddy oneself. In the course of trying to argue with the fellow, I made four mistakes:

(1) I tried to argue with the fellow at all, and with the other "Treeleaf Bashers" there, and I let it go on for maybe 3 or 4 days I think; that was dumb;

(2) Because 3/4ths or more of the bashers on the blog were posting anonymously, as you can see, I also decided to take some anonymous shots back [after being anonymously attacked for 3 or 4 days myself]; that was dumb

(3) At one point, several days into this, I tried to respond to comments about what a bunch of "goody two-shoes" we are at Treeleaf, and that I was guilty of calling someone a "pipsqueek" by making a couple of posts in which I said that calling someone a "pipsqueek or like words" is not the same as calling someone a "m--th=rf=ck=r" "c-ck-s-ck-r" and a string of like salty words (with the vowels ops: )! Now, this bunch of "honest" fellows likes to sometimes pull out the "m--th=rf=ck=r" "c-ck-s-ck-r" words, completely leave out the context in which they were said in comparison to "goody two-shoes" ... thus making it sound like I was just insulting someone. In truth, they are not completely wrong either ... because by that time, I was so hot under the collar with those liars, that I did take great enjoyment in saying the words. I got too upset, even though I was just trying to "make a point". However, they love to quote the thing and leave out the context.

(4) Likewise, I tried to make a similar point about how the scandal monger (and another fellow on the thread) should not print scandalous rumors based on mysterious "sources" by sarcastically trying to show them how I could make up a fake "scandal" about THEM. Unfortunately, the example "scandal" I made was about the monger giving the other fellow "the clap" through anal sex, and (oh my) ... was in EXTREME BAD TASTE :| (it also made 'jest', in my mind, of a tendency of the folks on that blog to call each other with the discriminatory word "butt buddies" as an insult. In my attempt to make fun of people using discriminatory language and creating rumors ... I made an example rumor that unfortunately had to contain the same kind of discriminatory language as an example). Needless to say, the same fellows like to take the tasteless story, strip it of the rest of the paragraph and context in which I am making it clear that it is an example of making baseless rumors, and quote it so that it sounds like I am saying an offensive. sexist, homophobe, angry insult to someone. As stupid as my "example" was, their actions are inexcusable in doing that.

Now, this same group of individuals is having a poke at Treeleaf again based on these events with Praxis. It is unbelievable. Furthermore, they may or may not be directly connected to this "Praxis" put up (that is yet to be determined). However, that is one reason that I am very very determined to keep this process open, in the sunshine and with participation by all. They are just waiting (as a matter of fact, they have already started) to turn this into the same kind of scandal that they did with the "Chet" incident. (Chet, by the way, is cool with us here honestly talking about that time in his life too).

If you would like to see some examples of the absolute lunacy and frequent hate direct at this place, Taigu and me (and, too often, you guys too), have a look here ... We have no secrets in this Sangha ... It starts about 13 posts down with a post by a fellow called "anon 108" (who justifies such "Angry Buddhism") and continues for another 150 or so posts ... a large part directed at us.

http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID ... 1056434810

Also, the "Extreme Bad Taste" post is among those all in BOLD about 30 down from the top at the above link.

And, yes, I have received some information from someone that Praxis is connected to this same group. Praxis, if you say it is not so, I will accept that however.

I do not know why Brad let's it run away like that, even though I appreciate that he is trying to keep freedom there. If you have any questions about what you read, let me know. People are people, and sometimes it is not so pretty. And some of these folks are Buddhists.

Gassho, J

PS - Here are a couple of highlights from the day before ...

Anonymous said...
That AlanLa guy is a knob.

I used to browse Treeleaf quite a bit and was always struck by what a fool that guy is. I'm from Texas, as is AlanLa, and I get a kick out the thought of that clown running around the east Texas shitsville he lives in, acting like an evolved holy man.

What a fucking tool that guy is.

Uh...... I now atone what I just wrote.

Anonymous said...
Dear God. I had gone away from browsing Treeleaf's forum. Now that it got brought up, I've taken a quick run-through over there.

That "Taigu" guy posted the following: "A simple glass of water or the sun in the curtains have much more to teach us that the endless twisted paths of the mind."

And the acolytes are falling all over themselves in the mad rush to post "THANK YOU FOR THIS TEACHING" to the guy. Jesus H, lol. "Thank you for this teaching, Taigu." Bwahahaha.

What a trip that place is.

If they can call that cyber-shit Buddhism, Brad, I don't see why you can't give some hybrid talk/sits and call them whatever you like. Go for it, my friend.

Trying Too Hard said...
Calling out Taigu is kind of like saying you'll fight the fat kid's retarded brother, eh?

Praxis Fan said...
It's just nauseating to read Jundo going on about gentle and kind speech, given his history of tirades, insults, passive aggression, sock-monkey postings, etc. Of course he would never even hint that he may have been guilty of any of these things amongst his Treeleafers. As usual, he merely states that he may have offered an unkind word once or twice in the past somewhere, citing some trivial example whilst completely ignoring the vile stuff many of us have seen here, on ZFI, on Treeleaf itself, and of course, most devastatingly on rebloggingbradwarner.blogspot.com. It's really disingenuous, and it's good to see people like Praxis calling him out on it.

http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID ... 8403739209

[Shugen]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

What to do.... What to do....

Not particularly helpful to practice.... Not particularly harmful either....

Squash the fly or ignore it until it loses interest and wanders off on it's own....

Ultimately, I decide which posts to read and which to react to.

Sorry, I'm on the fence on this one.

Ron

(Edit: I hadn't read Jundo's post before my post - IF Praxis is one of those mentioned, he should be let go. But, how to know? Perhaps a bit more openness on his part as to Why he is interested in being here in the first place?)

[Jundo]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

For the record, none of my posts have been deleted and I don't feel in any way silenced or whatever. As I wrote earlier in this topic, I'm totally cool with being banned, because of low impulse control (I'm working on it!) issues. I'm now thinking it might also provide some comfort to some of the members here if I were banned.

Also for the record, I was interested in joining Treeleaf in all aspects, even volunteered my services for the current site redevelopment. Let's just say I discovered that Treeleaf is not right for me. NO INNUENDOES!!! :P

Dear Praxis,

Fair enough, and you seem like you are wrestling with some things in your life right now. If you get them worked out, and if you ever decide Treeleaf is right for you after all (It may never turn out to be! ), you are welcome back. Please keep sitting, wherever.

Gassho, J

[louis]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

Hmm. U mad Bro?
Looks like someones been feeding the trolls.

How to decapitate a troll
Sadly most trolls are hostile, not funny. When dealing with these ugly beasts, the most important thing to remember is: DO NOT ENGAGE.

Like the Emperor Palpatine, a troll gains power every time you express anger or hatred. No matter how offensive they become, don’t give trolls the attention they are craving. If you studiously ignore them they will soon move on.

I think I am the individual who thanked Taigu and got dissed. So be it, two shits aint yet been given. All of you know my real life are aware where I am coming from - Life is short, do not squander it idly. So diss me all you want, Life goes on unfettered. You know the one about the monk who carried the girl across the river (against the precepts) and reminded down the road by his fellow monk....

The younger of the two monks hesitated as they were not supposed to have any physical contact with women. The older monk gently motioned the woman onto his back and proceeded to help the woman across the river. Upon reaching the other bank of the river, the woman got down, thanked the monks and went away.

As the monks continued their journey, the younger monk became increasingly agitated and finally spoke out, "Brother, you know we are not permitted to have any contact with women, how could you carry that woman on your shoulders?"

The older monk looked at him and softly replied, "You are right, I did carry that woman. But I have already put her down many hours ago after we crossed the river. Why are you still carrying her?"

Srsly, just let it go. Once it becomes clear to you that a thread is in troll territory stop typing and let it go. As far as Praxis is concerned, sometimes it is better in the long run to show someone the door. You know acts having consequences. If at some point the real person with a real name and history willing to share shows up, we would have long ago let bygones be bygones.

Ne?

_()_ Louis

ps Not all bad news as it brought the Rev out from his hermitage... Hey there Rev!

[Nindo]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

I'm sorry, I cannot hear one word of sincerity from praxis. Now that he takes that guy's words into his mouth, I suppose he will resurrect himself in some shape or form, too, after this sock puppet has been banned.

[Hogen]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

Frankly, I think this has been made much bigger than it ever needed to be.

Praxis has this place spinning around in circles and we appear to be letting him. He seems to be doing everything he can to get banned- to see if that will actually happen, as if getting banned will somehow prove his point.

[Dokan]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

Go, stay...meh.

If Praxis leaves then things will be OK...if he doesn't things will also be OK. I tried to look on ZFI to see if this is just his online demeanor and only found a guy who changed names a few times because of some drama.

I still go back to my original comments ... nothing to see here...back to Ango.

There's a common forum saying of "don't feed the trolls". Anytime I come across a thread that seems antagonistic and without sincerity I just move along...time is swiftly passing by, no time to waste on this stuff.

So to reiterate, really doesn't matter to me if he goes or stays. Either way I am OK with it.

Gassho

Shawn

Sent from my I897 using Tapatalk

[Eika]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

Frankly, I think this has been made much bigger than it ever needed to be.

Praxis has this place spinning around in circles and we appear to be letting him. He seems to be doing everything he can to get banned- to see if that will actually happen, as if getting banned will somehow prove his point.

I think I agree. Some folks are good at pushing buttons.

What I've never understood is why anyone would choose to take piano from someone whose piano playing they didn't like . . .

Eika

[Jundo]

Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

Hi,

Just a couple of more points.

Someone messaged me to suggest that we "are still being played" by "Praxis", and provides some evidence. Hmmm. I hope not. However, I have still not been contacted by Praxis privately to confirm the information he provided on registration.

Second, someone wrote to ask how there could be such "Buddhists who be hatin'". Here is my take on it from having dealt with these folks a few years, and I will be blunt:

There are some folks who are very filled with anger, meanness, resentments in one way or the other. Some maybe had "anger issues" even earlier in life, some were also alcoholics and drug addicts who, quitting the booze and dope, found Buddhism. Buddhism helped take the edge off the anger and resentments. That is WONDERFUL and to be applauded. We have folks here too who are dealing with various addictions and/or anger issues. But a small number of such folks, still filled with the anger and resentments just below the "white knuckle" surface, found a strange home over at my brother Brad's blog because of his "punk monk" image combined with his complete laissez-faire attitude toward blog moderation (PLUS laissez-faire approach on the Precepts emphasizing avoiding anger, right speech and such. Even my teacher Nishijima, a naturally kind and gentle man himself, may not have done enough to emphasize the Precepts, gentleness and kindness in his emphasis on Zazen because he assumed everybody would naturally be kind and gentle like him ... but that is a story for another day). So, there, one could be a "Buddhist" and be unabashedly foul mouthed, angry too, so long as one was sitting Zazen supposedly. That was largely turned on me a few times when I criticized that, had issues with Brad on these very subjects ... and separated our Sangha from that group over these very issues, including the anger, resentments and feuding that was found in the Dogen Sangha and around that blog.

Anyway, that's my theory and I'm sticking with it.

Now, I have been told by someone I trust that some or all of this "Praxis" thing may be an attempt by some folks connected there to create a "Chet II" incident just to "get us". I hope that is not true.

Oh, and one more correction. Earlier, I wrote this:

until a couple of years ago, I had the tendency to go out into the internet world and confront this group of folks anytime they said something untrue about this place

In fact, I did make one posting there this week when someone accused us of discriminating against or maligning Pure Land Buddhists. That is something I could not let go, as it is a serious charge. Here is the original post and my response.

Doug said...
@Mysterion: huh, another Jodo Shu follower.

I hate to jump on the "bash Treeleaf" wagon, but I admit my discussions of Pure Land Buddhism there were met with a cold, unfriendly shoulder from the administrators. Snarky comments from clergy strike me as a lousy way to garner interest in Soto Zen. It wasn't much better than E-Sangha when that was still around.

I found the board, like much of the Zen community I've encountered to be chauvanistic and suffering from what Prof. Bodiford refers to as "Neo-orthodoxy in Western Zen".

Suffice to say I gave up and moved onto to more friendly discussion groups.

To Brad's credit, this forum is quite a bit friendlier, especially once you moderate comments.

I responded:

jundo cohen said...

Hi,

I want to respond about just this one comment (my earlier attempt seems to have not posted).

This week, a novice priest from Treeleaf had the pleasure of sitting with Brad in a room filled with folks from many Zen lineages ... AZI, Christian Zen, even someone from Genpo's line. Everyone sitting in harmony under one roof. More here:

LINK

I wrote this in response:

Many roads up the mountain (anyway, What Mountain?). The only question is which paths lead to a good place (which is ultimately No Place At All, Here All Along), and which merely have one chasing one's own tail, or lead into the brambles! Many paths, no place to go ... but some paths are better than others.

No medicine to suit all patients (anyway, ultimately What Patient?). What we practice here may be right for many, poison for some. Other folks may need a flavor of Buddhism to treat their particular dis-ease (notice the hyphen, anyway What Disease?). Some may practice in monasteries, some not ... some may practice Just Sitting, some with a Koan, Breathing, Chanting Buddha's Name or Insight practice ... some may practice as Christians, Muslims or Jews and some not, some believing in God and some not ...

'Tis a very spacious Mountain, a most powerful Medicine. Boundless, in fact.

Gassho, J

In our Treeleaf Sangha, we have two Catholic Priests who sit with us, other Christians, some Muslims, Jews, political liberals and conservatives, atheists and many agnostics. Each can practice Shikantaza, and each sometimes shares and expresses with all our members how they can combine their Zen practice with other practices and beliefs (or lack thereof). That is very welcome, and one can combine Zen practice with many other beliefs or non-beliefs. The same for someone practicing Pure Land with Zen Practice being free to share it with others. However, the fact is that in our 'Zen Dojo' our core practice is Shikantaza together with the Precepts and a few other things (all Zazen in its wider meaning), and not those other practices. So, even though we are open to hear about it and share, such practice is not taught or encouraged in our Dojo for a simple reason: It is very much like coming to an Ai-ki-do dojo and wanting to teach and share Karate. That is not what we practice (one would be better to find a Karate Dojo, or a Karate-Ai-ki-do teacher if one wants to practice that).

I think people were respectful of your practices, and I do not think you will find any comment there by anyone who was "snarky" about it. It is just that we don't practice that there in our little place. But we respect and encourage you to follow your heart and do so (so long as you are sitting Shikantaza too).

You know, I often say this about how Shikantaza fits with many beliefs, with what is ...

If there is a Jesus, Allah, Jehovah or Amida Buddha in his Pure Land ... fetch water and chop wood, try to live avoiding doing harm.

And if there is no Jesus, Allah, Jehovah, no Amida Buddha or Pure Land ... fetch water and chop wood, try to live avoiding doing harm.

In Shikantaza, we sit with-and-as what is, whatever is. If there is a Jesus, Pure Land etc., we sit with/as that. If there is no Jesus, Pure Land etc., we sit with/as that.

Anyway, Doug, I hope that clear it up, and you are always welcome to sit with us.

Gassho, Jundo

Anyway, there are 'hatin rap singers who resent other 'rap singers, hatin' Americans who hate the French, hatin' Christians who resent other Christians, 'hatin Jews who resent other Jews, 'hatin Sunnis who resent Shi'ites (and every combination thereof) ...

... I will never understand how there can be 'hatin and resentin' Buddhists, but such is human nature.

All we can do is try to be, ourselves, gentle, soft spoken and anger free.


Gassho, J