Don't meditate, just sit.

[Seiryu]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

I'm a very logical (and cynical sometimes) person, and I have hang ups. Those hang ups definitely express themselves in my habitual responses to things and my misunderstanding of the Dharma.

Please forgive the tone of my question. I am sincere and do not mean any cynicism or sarcasm (although I am very much of both and have really great impromptu humor based on that.. well my wife doesn't always laugh but I do. :mrgreen But is it a fair comparison to compare human beings, with consciousness, to something like mountains and clouds? I remember Jesus says that in The Bible, and I'm paraphrasing, something about the lilies in the field don't worry, so why do you? But the lilies in the field do not have a mind or consciousness. The mountains and clouds don't either. Maybe they do, I don't know... But even if they do it's impossible for me to really know what they are doing anyway. Mountains just do what mountains do because they are mountains. There is no thinking. We don't want to take the example that way right? I mean thinking is a good thing, unless we become imprisoned by it.

If we separate our intentions from ourselves, we really never act. We just sit around twiddling our thumbs. If we just act blindly then we are just acting without any point to our action. But if we merge both intent with action, then that's the sweet spot. Is that the point? Is that what is meant by non-intention?

Gassho,

Risho

Philosophy has a tendency to mess with our head so I am in accord.

Nothing wrong with comparing ourselves with mountains and clouds, because those mountains and clouds are our very body, They are our very mind. They are a part of us. When you look at a mountain, you see an image essentially being reflected by your eye. In part, the mountain you see is simply your very mind's mountain not the mountain in itself.

Comparing to mountains and clouds is that it teaches us not to look for any point, because there is none, that’s the beauty of it, that there is no point. Our whole lives we are brought up to look for the point in things, to constantly look for some future moment instead of looking at what is in front of us now. To see the present, to see the now, is to truly see the world we live in, not the world we think we live in. A mountain just is, a cloud just is, yet we run from that, we run from just being. We wish to be something else, somewhere else. Lets us be like the mountain and just be open to what is.

Just some thoughts...

[Risho]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

Thank you Seiryu... That does make sense.

P.S. I thought I remember you saying you are a Philosophy major; I was a Philosophy major as well. They've warped us. hahaha

Gassho,

Risho

[sittingzen]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

Deep gassho for this reminder. Just.Sit!

[Amelia]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

The point is not to deny anything. Not to take anything out, just look and see.

The knots will untangle themselves in due time...

Unrelated to the thread, reading this sparked some kind of understanding in me and was very appropriate for me at the moment. Thank you. _/_

...Wanting to see things clearly as oppose to seeing things un-clearly
you fall deeper into the well.
When we see with our full body and mind, through the eyes of the trees and great oceans,
what do you see? Is it clear or unclear?

--------------------------------------------------

I'm a very logical (and cynical sometimes) person, and I have hang ups. Those hang ups definitely express themselves in my habitual responses to things and my misunderstanding of the Dharma.

We're all human.

In part, the mountain you see is simply your very mind's mountain not the mountain in itself.

_/_

[Jundo]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

But is it a fair comparison to compare human beings, with consciousness, to something like mountains and clouds? I remember Jesus says that in The Bible, and I'm paraphrasing, something about the lilies in the field don't worry, so why do you? But the lilies in the field do not have a mind or consciousness. The mountains and clouds don't either. Maybe they do, I don't know... But even if they do it's impossible for me to really know what they are doing anyway. Mountains just do what mountains do because they are mountains. There is no thinking.

Hi,

Some wise teachings on this by Seiryu.

Nothing wrong with comparing ourselves with mountains and clouds, because those mountains and clouds are our very body, They are our very mind. ... Our whole lives we are brought up to look for the point in things, to constantly look for some future moment instead of looking at what is in front of us now. To see the present, to see the now, is to truly see the world we live in, not the world we think we live in. A mountain just is, a cloud just is, yet we run from that, we run from just being. We wish to be something else, somewhere else. Lets us be like the mountain and just be open to what is.

We humans think we are so smart, with such big brains filled with thoughts, goals, analysis. AND WE ARE! THAT IS WHAT HAS MADE US KINGS OF THIS PLANET! But we also may have lost a certain way of "just being" that the mountains and clouds" teach, for they are each majestic. We can taste some of that by sitting "mountain like" in Zazen, letting life float freely like clouds.

Please don't analyze this too much! 8) Simply experience and be this in Zazen.

Thus, Master Hongzhi writes in his "Guidepost of Silent Illumination" ...

Dew in the moonlight, a river of stars, snow-covered pines, clouds enveloping the peak. ...
The ten thousand forms majestically glisten and expound the dharma.

For Master Dogen, mountains sit, preach, get up to walk, flow and dance. He wrote ...

Mountains and waters right now are the actualization of the ancient Buddha way. Each, abiding in its phenomenal expression, realizes completeness. Because mountains and waters have been active since before the Empty Eon, they are alive at this moment. Because they have been the self since before form arose they are emancipation realization. ...

Green mountains master walking and eastern mountains master traveling on water. Accordingly, these activities are a mountain's practice. Keeping its own form, without changing body and mind, a mountain always practices in every place. Don't slander by saying that a green mountain cannot walk and an eastern mountains cannot travel on water. When your understanding is shallow, you doubt the phrase, "Green mountains are walking." When your learning is immature, you are shocked by the words "flowing mountains." Without full understanding even the words "flowing water," you drown in small views and narrow understanding. Yet the characteristics of mountains manifest their form and life-force. (Shobogenzo Sansuikyo)

Gassho, J

[Risho]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

Gassho... I do tend to over-analyze. Then I do catch myself and realize that I don't even remember why the question seemed so important or what I'm questioning anymore.

You teisho during this month's 4 hour zazenkai was very timely.

Gassho,

Risho

[Kaishin]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

The only thing I'll add is that I think certain different types of meditation are good things, like medicine for different ills. Even though shikantaza is our central practice, I still frequently use guided/voice meditation for stress relief or relaxation. But I don't see them as the same thing, nor do I think they conflict.

Meditation is good for relaxing. Zazen is good...for nothing! Or as Shohaku Okamura says, "zazen has no market value!"

[Amelia]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

The only thing I'll add is that I think certain different types of meditation are good things, like medicine for different ills. Even though shikantaza is our central practice, I still frequently use guided/voice meditation for stress relief or relaxation. But I don't see them as the same thing, nor do I think they conflict.

I agree. I know many different types of meditation, and occasionally I will move from my main practice of Shikantaza by sitting differently, or lying down, closing my eyes, and following the wandering of my thoughts and fantasies. I also used to be a big fan of using mantra to meditate. Because of my Shikantaza practice, however, I am better able to separate "myself" from those visions (even though "I" am those visions) and better understand this body and mind that "I" am in.

[Hoyu]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

Thanks for sharing the link to this article Chugai. Very interesting and enjoyable read. Especially the part about his meeting with the speech consultant.

Gassho,
John

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

Please forgive the tone of my question. I am sincere and do not mean any cynicism or sarcasm (although I am very much of both and have really great impromptu humor based on that.. well my wife doesn't always laugh but I do. ) But is it a fair comparison to compare human beings, with consciousness, to something like mountains and clouds? I remember Jesus says that in The Bible, and I'm paraphrasing, something about the lilies in the field don't worry, so why do you? But the lilies in the field do not have a mind or consciousness. The mountains and clouds don't either. Maybe they do, I don't know... But even if they do it's impossible for me to really know what they are doing anyway. Mountains just do what mountains do because they are mountains. There is no thinking. We don't want to take the example that way right? I mean thinking is a good thing, unless we become imprisoned by it.

Exactly. Sort of. Mountains mountain and clouds cloud, because that is their Buddha nature. We are thinking creatures and that is good because to deny that aspect of ourselves is to deny a part of the human condition. However, that being said, allowing the thinking to run away with us and dominate our lives, such that we begin to use thinking for things it wasn't meant to be used for, like discriminating thoughts, clinging to phenomena, and grasping at things is like clouds trying to mountain without realizing that they already ARE mountains, just as much as ever they were clouds. That's the danger of "thought". It probably has the greatest perpensity for misuse out of all the rest of our faculties, simply because there is no end to it. We become bored or complacent with the wonder of the everyday, and we begin to "think up" new ideas, new discriminations, new things to grasp on to and suffer over when lost, broken, damaged, or unattainable.

It is a double edged sword. Best to think, "I will have breakfast now." in stead of "I don't like eggs."

[Jundo]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

Exactly. Sort of. Mountains mountain and clouds cloud, because that is their Buddha nature. We are thinking creatures and that is good because to deny that aspect of ourselves is to deny a part of the human condition. However, that being said, allowing the thinking to run away with us and dominate our lives, such that we begin to use thinking for things it wasn't meant to be used for, like discriminating thoughts, clinging to phenomena, and grasping at things is like clouds trying to mountain without realizing that they already ARE mountains, just as much as ever they were clouds. That's the danger of "thought". It probably has the greatest perpensity for misuse out of all the rest of our faculties, simply because there is no end to it. We become bored or complacent with the wonder of the everyday, and we begin to "think up" new ideas, new discriminations, new things to grasp on to and suffer over when lost, broken, damaged, or unattainable.

Chris speaks my mind ... and, I feel, the mountain and cloud mind too. 8)

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

Tenzo Brown wrote in the essay Chugai linked to ...

So what do you do with thinking during meditation? This first strategy, which is basic to Buddhism, especially Zen, emphasizes posture and breathing. With energy and commitment, give your attention fully to them rather than to your thinking.

This means emphasizing a straighter spine, including the small of the back curved slightly in and the neck long. ... you can also have your thinking count the breaths, say on the exhalation, or note the breath as it proceeds in and out. ...


The second strategy involves giving your thinking a task. Good ways of doing this include koan study, the vipassana practice of noting, and any host of other creative endeavors. ...

A third approach is to make a deal with your thinking: Leave me alone for now and I'll check back with you later.

I am not sure that I fully followed the description in the article of the "third approach", but I believe that the flavor of Shikantaza Zazen encouraged at Treeleaf is perhaps this category ... open, spacious awareness focused on 'everything an nothing in particular' ... letting thoughts come and go without grabbing on to them or stirring them up ... dropping judgments, aversions and attractions, thoughts of this and that. I believe in this flavor of Shikantaza as most flexible, spacious and open for bringing off the cushion into all of life.

I have written about the various flavors of Shikantaza here ...

There are many small variations in Shikantaza, teacher to teacher. One has to place and focus (and simultaneously not place/focus) the mind somewhere!

So, for example, Uchiyama Roshi was a "bring your attention back to the posture" guy. Nishijima Roshi is a "focus on keeping the spine straight" fellow, and there are others who emphasize focusing on the breath or the Hara (also called the "Tanden", the traditional "center of gravity" of the body, and a center of Qi energy in traditional Chinese medicine) ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dantian

Some recommend following the breath for a lifetime, others for just a time.

All are forms of Shikantaza ... so long as the objectless nature of sitting is maintained even if focused on an object.

In fact, all forms of Shikantaza have an "object of meditation", a place to focus or place the mind to build concentration and quiet the thoughts (hopefully to soften the border and pass through "object" and "subject"), while dropping all effort to attain and releasing all judgments. At Treeleaf, I teach counting the breaths, or observing the breath, merely as a way to settle the mind for beginners or to settle down on particularly cloudy, stormy days. As our central "objectless" object of meditation, I recommend open, spacious sitting centered on everything and nothing at all ... sitting with open, spacious awareness ... sitting with the whole world but without being lost in trains of thought (which I also sometimes describe as having the mind focused on "no place and everyplace at once"). That open stillness is our "object of concentration". My reason for that is simply that I believe it makes it a bit easier to take this practice off the Zafu and out into the world.

If you need a place to feel you are "placing the mind", I recommend on the top of the palm in the left hand while in the Mudra (another traditional place for the focus in Shikantaza). Yet, keep that "spacious, unobstructed, everywhere and no one place" emphasis.

If you have not read it before (or even if you have), Uchiyama has one of the most elegant "diagrams" of Shikantaza's way in his book "Openning the Hand of Thought". Lovely.

Please go here, search the word "line", find page 52, entitled "Waking Up To Life", and read to page 60 (about the diagram drawing on page 54) ... notice especially the part where he says "Zazen is not being glued to line ZZ'" (what I might call "returning to the clear, open, blue sky 10,00 times and 10,000 times again")

http://books.google.com/booksid=fOU_1vlGN9UC&printsec=frontcover&dq=uchiyama+zen+opening+hand+thought&source=bl&ots=lMkOAVwzBI&sig=2r4hf5AAihIl8gqcaE7HpLXgPtk&hl=en&ei=2uZoS8SwJIjitgPexZWBBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=line&f=false

Whether you focus on the posture, the breath, the top of the left hand, the Hara, or the sensation of clear, open blue sky (with clouds drifting out) that I recommend ... one should eventually sometimes attain to an open, unobstructed, holding everything without discrimination or division feeling ... What Uchiyama calls "line ZZ" in his essay, and what I call clear open sky.

However, I say "sometimes" (and Uchiyama says "don't stay glued to ZZ") because the whole thing is the trip, reject nothing ... not the thoughts and emotions that drag you away from ZZ", not the clouds which sometimes block the clear blue sky. It is all life, all perfectly what it is. Sometimes it will be "bare awareness", sometimes awareness of this or that. Drop all judgments, drop all goals and need to get someplace else or to be any other way.

Yet, nonetheless, return again and again to ZZ, to the clear blue sky (allowing the thoughts and emotion clouds to drift away). If you notice you are engaged in trains of thought, release them, drop them, and return to ZZ. Repeat endlessly.

All that, at once, is "Shikantaza".

Gassho, J

[Yugen]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

Suzuki had a marvelous saying regarding thoughts arising during Shikantaza - "let them in but do not invite them for tea...."

In my case, we just pound the espresso shots together... :lol:

gassho

Yugen

[Jundo]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

Suzuki had a marvelous saying regarding thoughts arising during Shikantaza - "let them in but do not invite them for tea...."

Wonderful.

[Jiki22]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

Thank you
One of a 10000 times my teacher told it
But doing that was hard
And still is sometime
Just sit