Don't meditate, just sit.

[Dokan]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

Thank you Mike foe the quote!

And once again thanks Shokai for the laugh...always welcomed.

Gassho
Shawn

Sent from my I897 using Tapatalk

[danny]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

Well...to some point I think you're right in making a distinction between "Zazen" and "Meditation".

At the same time I think "just sit there like a fool" doesn't hit what Zazen is at all. If you would tell someone who is completely new to meditation/zen/buddhism/zazen to "just sit there in the posture and that's it!" that person would sit there and simply daydream.

That's why you probably will tell a beginner to sit there and when he/she gets "distracted" from "just sitting" into daydreaming to wake up and come back to "just sitting", letting go the thoughts whatever they are, without trying to chase them away.

To do so you need some kind of awareness of what's going on in your mind, otherwise you would not be able to notice that you just got lost in thought or that your posture is off.

And well...now we're no longer that far away from "meditation" or mindfulness practice or whatever you want to call it anymore. It's for sure not just "sitting there like a fool". You're training your mind/awareness while sitting there...

Just my thoughts on this

Take care,

Daniel

[Jundo]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

Well...to some point I think you're right in making a distinction between "Zazen" and "Meditation".

At the same time I think "just sit there like a fool" doesn't hit what Zazen is at all. If you would tell someone who is completely new to meditation/zen/buddhism/zazen to "just sit there in the posture and that's it!" that person would sit there and simply daydream.

That's why you probably will tell a beginner to sit there and when he/she gets "distracted" from "just sitting" into daydreaming to wake up and come back to "just sitting", letting go the thoughts whatever they are, without trying to chase them away.

It is a subtle art, this sitting non-sitting. We do not try to quiet the mind, nor do we leave our self to get lost in distraction ... rather like letting turbulent water settle neither by shaking the jar nor by aggressively trying to pat the water smooth and flat with one's hand. Just let it settle of its own accord. What is more, though we allow the stillness of mind to happen naturally by our "doing nothing", we simultaneously let the water be just what it is ... a Stillness (capital 'S') ultimately not dependent even on being outwardly quiet and still ... for water is always pure water, whether frozen or flat or moving in waves or even as a violent Tsunami! :cry: I spoke about that a bit in yesterday's Xin Xin Ming talk ...

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4250

Zazen is not "meditation" because we do not try to attain something, change something, run towards some special state. Yet, in this "not running" we thus attain a very special state, and the change is revolutionary, becoming one and whole with the stillness that is change! Funny how that works!

I often say this:

So, if someone were to think I am saying, "All you need to do in Zazen is sit down on one's hindquarters, and that's enough ... just twiddle your thumbs in the 'Cosmic Mudra' and you are Buddha" then, respectfully, I believe they do not get my point. But if they understand, "There is absolutely no place to be, where one needs to be or elsewhere where one can be, than on that Zafu in that moment, and that moment itself is all complete, all-encompassing, always at home, the total doing of All Life, Time and Space fully realized" ... they are closer to the flavor. . Then, if they rise up from the Zafu ... sensing that they are "Buddha" ... and then try to act in life a bit more how a Buddha would act, they get the point.

This is the truly amazing Koan of "goalless Just Sitting" ... Our way of sitting is sitting as a totally Whole and Complete Action ... but that does not mean we fall into complacency on the cushion. We sit "with the Mudra" perfectly round ... not twiddling our thumbs.

Zazen seeks no change, needs no change, is complete and whole ... and that realization works a revolutionary change. ...

Does that make sense ... in a Zenny way?

Gassho, Jundo

[Hoyu]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

Danny wrote:
If you would tell someone who is completely new to meditation/zen/buddhism/zazen to "just sit there in the posture and that's it!" that person would sit there and simply daydream.

Hi Daniel,

In modern times, especially in the west, there is much direction(perhaps to much?) on how to sit for new students. But, from my understanding, this typically wasn't the case in Zen of "yesteryear" where students coming into the monastery would plainly be told to just sit without all the fancy explanation(if any at all!). I think the idea behind it was that the more information you give to weigh their minds down with, the further you pull them away from the essence of Shikantaza.

Gassho,
John

[Seiryu]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

A brillant Koan indeed

Sit and see for yourself...

[danny]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

Thanks for your input/answers. I agree to most of it.

My point was more directing into that we shikantaza-zen-guys are probably not as special and different from other "meditators" as we often think or would like to be. For sure Dogen and others had their very own way of showing how to sit but when it comes down to it, what we actually do is not that different from other schools of sitting.

We just have a somehow very own way to explain it I think (and I think that's good basically if we don't think we're too special because of this)

Take care,

Danny

[Amelia]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

How often do we sit down to zazen and begin "meditating"?

Coming from a Yoga background, this happens to me a lot! :lol: Most of the meditation I've had experience with prior to Zazen have all had a goal of some kind attached to them, whether it is imagining golden light, or going on some kind of creative visualization. So yeah, sometimes when I sit Zazen, I do it with that goal to "meditate," as if I'm doing something! :roll:

From Fukanzazengi

Think of not thinking. Not thinking: What kind of thinking is that? Letting thoughts go (Nonthinking). This is the essential art of zazen. ??Zazen is not a meditation technique. It is simply the Dharma gate of joyful ease, it is practicing the realization of the boundless Dharma way. Here, the open mystery manifests, and there are no more traps and snares for you to get caught in.??If you grasp the point, you are like a dragon gaining the water, like a tiger taking to the mountains. For you must know that the true Dharma appears of itself, so that from the start dullness and distraction are struck aside.?

_/_

Saved to my collection.

It is a subtle art, this sitting non-sitting. We do not try to quiet the mind, nor do we leave our self to get lost in distraction ... rather like letting turbulent water settle neither by shaking the jar nor by aggressively trying to pat the water smooth and flat with one's hand. Just let it settle of its own accord. What is more, though we allow the stillness of mind to happen naturally by our "doing nothing", we simultaneously let the water be just what it is ... a Stillness (capital 'S') ultimately not dependent even on being outwardly quiet and still ... for water is always pure water, whether frozen or flat or moving in waves or even as a violent Tsunami!...

_/_ Thank you, Jundo, I saved some words from this too.

I think the idea behind it was that the more information you give to weigh their minds down with, the further you pull them away from the essence of Shikantaza.

I feel there is a lot of truth to this-- I sat better when I knew less about sitting! 8)

[Keishin]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

Hellos to all posting here!


When I first started sitting regularly, the directive "SIT!" would come to mind.
Sometimes I'd want to jump off that zafu and jump out of my skin...I had an image of myself, holding my hand out like a dog training and said (to myself sitting) 'Stay.... Staaaaay...Staaaaaaaaaay.'
It was helpful.
A bit silly, but helpful. This business of "SIT!" and "Staaaaaaay...." didn't last very long, but during the time period it was around, it was helpful.

In my experience, it takes a long time to find out what 'just sitting' is. It is very likely I will come to the conclusion of this particular life without anywhere near coming to know what it is....and yet, never having been far from it!

[Shokai]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

I sometimes wonder what my dog thinks when told to sit. However, He sure likes to get in on the goings-on when I sit zazen

He's a 12 yr old, 75 lb puppy that likes to sit in my lap during zazen !

Do you think dogs have Buddha nature? :lol:

[Nindo]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

I just read this in "The path is the goal" by Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche. I love his exaggerations :wink:

Let us discuss the term meditation at this point. When we talk about the practice of meditation, we are talking about a way of being. Unfortunately, the term meditation is not quite an adequate translation of the Sanskrit term dhyana or samadhi. Whenever we use a verbal form like “to meditate” or “meditating,” that automatically invites the question “What are you meditating upon?” or “What are you meditating in?” That is a common question that always comes up. But according to the Buddha’s philosophy, there is no verb “to meditate.” There is just a noun, “meditation.” There’s no meditating. You don’t meditate, but you be in a state of meditation. You might find it very hard to swallow this distinction. We have a linguistic, a grammatical problem here. Meditating is not part of the Buddhist vocabulary, but meditation is.

“Meditation” is a noun that denotes that you are being in a state of meditation already. Whereas “meditating” gives the idea of an activity that’s taking place all the time, that you’re meditating on this or that, concentrating on flickering candlelight, watching an incense stick burning, listening to your pulse, your heartbeat, listening to the inner tunes of your mantric utterance going on in your head—whatever. But according to the buddhadharma, meditation is a simple factor. You don’t meditate, you just be in the meditation. Dhyana is a noun rather than a verb. It refers to being in a state of dhyana, rather than “dhyana-ing.” Meditation in this case has no object, no purpose, no reference point. It is simply individuals willing to take a discipline on themselves, not to please God or the Buddha or their teacher or themselves. Rather one just sits, one holds oneself together. One sits a certain length of time. One just simply sits without aim, object, purpose, without anything at all. Nothing whatsoever. One just sits.

You might ask, “Then what does one do if one sits? Shouldn’t one be doing something? Or is one just sitting there hanging out?” Well, there’s a difference between sitting and “hanging out” in the American idiom. The term hanging out means something like “grooving on your scene.” And sitting is just being there like a piece of rock or a disused coffee cup sitting on the table. So meditation is not regarded as hanging out but just sitting and being, simply.

Questions often come up like, "Why the hell am I doing this, behaving like an idiot, just sitting?" And people also experience a lot of resentment. But If we learn to sit properly, thoroughly, and fully, that is the best thing we could do at this point.

Before we discuss techniques, let us point out the very merit and sanity and wakefulness you are going to get out of this, out of just simply being willing to sit like a piece of rock. It's fantastically powerful. It overrides the atom bomb. It's extraordinarily powerful that we decide just to sit, not hang out or perch, but just to sit on a meditation cushion. Such a brave attitude, such a wonderful commitment is magnificent. It is very sane, extraordinarily sane.

It is outrageous [to sit on a cushion without any purpose]. Nobody would actually ever do that. We can't even think about it. It's unthinkable. It's terrible - we would be wasting our time.

Now there's the point - wasting our time. Maybe that's a good one, wasting our time. Give time a rest. Let it be wasted. Create virgin time, uncontaminated time, time that hasn't been hassled by aggression, passion, and speed. Let us create pure time. Sit and create pure time.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=r6KGZALCqdYC&lpg=PA7&ots=BC4fRDyTTR

[Amelia]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

I sometimes wonder what my dog thinks when told to sit. However, He sure likes to get in on the goings-on when I sit zazen

My poor doggie makes annoyed noises at me, wondering if I'm okay. :lol:

Do you think dogs have Buddha nature? :lol:

MU

:P

[Kaishin]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

It is outrageous [to sit on a cushion without any purpose]. Nobody would actually ever do that. We can't even think about it. It's unthinkable. It's terrible - we would be wasting our time.

Sounds familiar!

My point was more directing into that we shikantaza-zen-guys are probably not as special and different from other "meditators" as we often think or would like to be. For sure Dogen and others had their very own way of showing how to sit but when it comes down to it, what we actually do is not that different from other schools of sitting.

From a certain perspective, I'd kind of agree. After all, look at the excerpt Nindo posted above. That's a Vajrayana guy... yet everything he writes sounds just like a description of zazen...

[Seiryu]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

The practice itself doesn't matter. Its the intention to grow that is of importance. Because the practice can't do anything for you. Its what happens to you that is different. Eventually the practice becomes so annoying, so utterly frustrating that you surrender, you give up. It is then that you will really start to practice, because it is then that the ego has dropped.
The practice remains the same, but how we engage it will be different.

And this can happen with anything. If we are committed to grow, then all of life is our path, and anything, even the things we think are bad can helps us to grow.

The point is not to deny anything. Not to take anything out, just look and see.

The knots will untangle themselves in due time...

[Jundo]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

You don’t meditate, you just be in the meditation. Dhyana is a noun rather than a verb. It refers to being in a state of dhyana, rather than “dhyana-ing.” Meditation in this case has no object, no purpose, no reference point. ...

Questions often come up like, "Why the hell am I doing this, behaving like an idiot, just sitting?" And people also experience a lot of resentment. But If we learn to sit properly, thoroughly, and fully, that is the best thing we could do at this point.

Thank you for this. Trungpa could be very "Shikantaza" in his descriptions. He was good friends with Suzuki Roshi too. One thing, though, is that I have heard other teachers describe Zazen and all of reality (not two, by the way) as a VERB ... ongoing, action, lively, the dancing of emptiness ... more than a fixed, categorized NOUN!

They have a good perspective as well for, after all ... Truth is each and all (shining in/as/right through adverbs and adjectives too!), as well as beyond all words and phrases! 8)

The practice itself doesn't matter. Its the intention to grow that is of importance. ... If we are committed to grow, then all of life is our path, and anything, even the things we think are bad can helps us to grow.

Ah, it is good to have intentions in life and in our Zen practice (not two, by the way). Intentions are needed, or else we might not even bother to crawl out of bed and head to the Zafu each day (let alone pay the rent and feed the babies).

But ... do plants and trees grow because they have "intentions"? Do clouds "try" to float through the sky? Do mountains 'mountain' and become mountains because they have intention to be better or grander mountains? They do just fine as they are. So, when we sit ... and in all of life ... perhaps we must do so more with such "non-intentions" ... as tall and full of life as trees, floating like clouds unobstructed even by the mountains, sitting as vibrant mountains living grand as they are.

When the ego finally drops ... and the knots untangle ... perhaps this is what is realized.

Some fellow wiser than you (named Seiryu on another thread) 8) wrote ...

What dualities exist from the perspective of the water and clouds?
Are we just those very water and clouds ourselves...?
Wanting to see things clearly as oppose to seeing things un-clearly
you fall deeper into the well.
When we see with our full body and mind, through the eyes of the trees and great oceans,
what do you see? Is it clear or unclear?

(I would write more ... but I must move on, so much to get done today to pay the rent and feed the babies).

Gassho, J

[Risho]

Re: Don't meditate, just sit.

I'm a very logical (and cynical sometimes) person, and I have hang ups. Those hang ups definitely express themselves in my habitual responses to things and my misunderstanding of the Dharma.

Please forgive the tone of my question. I am sincere and do not mean any cynicism or sarcasm (although I am very much of both and have really great impromptu humor based on that.. well my wife doesn't always laugh but I do. :mrgreen But is it a fair comparison to compare human beings, with consciousness, to something like mountains and clouds? I remember Jesus says that in The Bible, and I'm paraphrasing, something about the lilies in the field don't worry, so why do you? But the lilies in the field do not have a mind or consciousness. The mountains and clouds don't either. Maybe they do, I don't know... But even if they do it's impossible for me to really know what they are doing anyway. Mountains just do what mountains do because they are mountains. There is no thinking. We don't want to take the example that way right? I mean thinking is a good thing, unless we become imprisoned by it.

If we separate our intentions from ourselves, we really never act. We just sit around twiddling our thumbs. If we just act blindly then we are just acting without any point to our action. But if we merge both intent with action, then that's the sweet spot. Is that the point? Is that what is meant by non-intention?

Gassho,

Risho