Buddhist Geeks 230: The Internet Is Not Your Teacher

[Hoyu]

Re: Buddhist Geeks 230: The Internet Is Not Your Teacher

quote from Ethan Nichtern:

No such thing as Internet Dharma

I disagree with this statement most. I think such a statement underestimates the Dharma

Everything else he says is either validated or not by the commitment of the individual who is practicing.

Gassho,
John

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Buddhist Geeks 230: The Internet Is Not Your Teacher

The internet is but a tool, like a hammer. All depends what one does with it. One can do something constructive or destructive. One can make something cheap and shoddy, or do fine work like a craftsman.

I will throw my oppinion behind Jundo here. However, I will say that knowledge givin is less appreciated than knowledge earned, though that usually has to do with more concrete matters. I can't imagine that learning the dharma through the interweb would be learning the dharma through a teacher. That being said, learning the dharma from a teacher is using a hammer after being schooled in its use by a master carpenter, and learning the dharma from the internet (and by this I mean without the guidance of a teacher to help keep us away from self-indulgent pitfalls and delusions) is more like giving the hammer to a child. Asking each to build a chair, well....one might only trust one to sit in over the other.

[ChrisA]

Re: Buddhist Geeks 230: The Internet Is Not Your Teacher

I'd add to Christopher's post that -- in my opinion -- Treeleaf is all about learning from teachers and sangha, not some empty shell of information transfer called "the internet." (That's what Nichtern is criticizing when he mentions "the internet dharma," I think....)

What you've all built here is very consistent is a model of learning from teachers and sangha; the internet just happens to be the tool. Compare that to the many other "click here for happiness" options out there and I think you get a sense of what Nichtern is about. I think.

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Buddhist Geeks 230: The Internet Is Not Your Teacher

I'd add to Christopher's post that -- in my opinion -- Treeleaf is all about learning from teachers and sangha, not some empty shell of information transfer called "the internet." (That's what Nichtern is criticizing when he mentions "the internet dharma," I think....)

What you've all built here is very consistent is a model of learning from teachers and sangha; the internet just happens to be the tool. Compare that to the many other "click here for happiness" options out there and I think you get a sense of what Nichtern is about. I think.

Not to seem like I'm vascilating between points here, but I will mildly disagree here with the above point. Treeleaf is all about learning the dharma, whatever the teachings source. I think that the teachers we have and the sangha we make up, help us to realize when and how we are being taught. As Aitken Roshi said,

The Chinese thrush sings in my heart, and white clouds float across the blue sky of my mind. All things are my teacher.

One can learn the dharma from a rake or a shovel, if one is learning from a place of Right Mindfulness. But it helps for a teacher to be available who will set you on the path to realizing that a rake or a shovel can teach us with their enduring and inherent faithfulness. Rakes rake, shovels shovel, and we learn and sit.

[Taigu]

Re: Buddhist Geeks 230: The Internet Is Not Your Teacher

No such thing as internet dharma...

I am surprised how shortsighted people can be these days, blaming the web or denying that it can carry the teachings all over the world. An American Zen teacher got in touch with Shohei on skype recently to tell him how valuable and really good Treeleaf was after observing the thing working for a year (Maybe Shohei you could let us know about this discussion you had?).

Internet is what you make of it, a pretty good miror of post modern decaying societies: the three gods at work: power, money and sex. But it also the realm of the other sides of the three coins: creativity, generosity and love.

More and more sanghas are using this tool, and many more will in the near future.
Reality is not out there. Reality doesn't abide in front of you: a forest is not more real than woods on a screen. Reality is the way you look at things and dance with the world. It is your life.



gassho


Taigu


PS: sorry for not being around the last few days, I have no time or so litlle because of this crazy work of mine. Should be better next week. I will post a vid on Monday.

[disastermouse]

Re: Buddhist Geeks 230: The Internet Is Not Your Teacher

No such thing as internet dharma...

I am surprised how shortsighted people can be these days, blaming the web or denying that it can carry the teachings all over the world. An American Zen teacher got in touch with Shohei on skype recently to tell him how valuable and really good Treeleaf was after observing the thing working for a year (Maybe Shohei you could let us know about this discussion you had?).

Internet is what you make of it, a pretty good miror of post modern decaying societies: the three gods at work: power, money and sex. But it also the realm of the other sides of the three coins: creativity, generosity and love.

More and more sanghas are using this tool, and many more will in the near future.
Reality is not out there. Reality doesn't abide in front of you: a forest is not more real than woods on a screen. Reality is the way you look at things and dance with the world. It is your life.



gassho


Taigu


PS: sorry for not being around the last few days, I have no time or so litlle because of this crazy work of mine. Should be better next week. I will post a vid on Monday.

The short-sightedness can be frustrating, but oddly, I just feel compassionate towards the people who disagree at this point. This is probably normal behavior for most folks, but it's something different for it not to bother me.

Gassho.

Chet

[Kaishin]

Re: Buddhist Geeks 230: The Internet Is Not Your Teacher

I am surprised how shortsighted people can be these days, blaming the web or denying that it can carry the teachings all over the world. An American Zen teacher got in touch with Shohei on skype recently to tell him how valuable and really good Treeleaf was after observing the thing working for a year (Maybe Shohei you could let us know about this discussion you had?)..

This would be interesting to hear!

[Shohei]

Re: Buddhist Geeks 230: The Internet Is Not Your Teacher

Hiyas
As Taigu had mentioned I was having a skype conversation with with Yuko Conniff (She runs Great Paitence Zen stitchery) a week or so a go.

Skipping back over a year (like a year and 8 months!) She had agreed to sew Fugen and my own kimono and koromo. Through that meeting, initially via emails back and forth and phone conversations, she came to know the that our ordinations were going to be held online and that besides either running or attending a local sitting group, our Sangha we practiced with was online. She had indicated she was a bit skeptical of it all. We invited her to the try skype (which she said she would) and to check out the forums, video sit-alongs with Jundo and Taigu, the teachers blogs as well as just check out Treeleaf as a whole and the Sangha members and of course to please join us for the ordination ceremony.

She watched (and said was moved by) our ordination ceremony and, while not "traditional" in some ways was pleased with the sincerity of the teachers, sangha and unsui. So from there on she had kept in touch here and there via email and a few months ago did manage to get skype (she confessed being a bit technologically behind the curve some there but did manage to get set up!).

So now back to last week. She finally managed to catch me with skype on (and me near the computer with kids occupied by my mom!) and we had a really good talk about sewing (hehe surprise!), practice, and then Treeleaf etc.
She said first that she was now sitting with a group via skype in Florida(!) and that she was amazed by the ease of the tech and by the connectedness, seeing eye to eye as(more lens to lens). and able to share this practice with over many miles and timezones (hehe sounds familiar!). Any who she did say in the end after our long convesation, that she was moved by the sincerity of the practice here, the teachers, the fact that we were keeping alive the kesa tradition and sharing it, and so on. I shared that we were currently practicing a 90 day ango as well as the up coming Jukai and the Study and sewing of the rakusu by those taking the precepts. She was also shocked that we had done the bulk of this sewing by web (blog/video/skype) and book only(and that those sewing a kesa had done so AND managed the corners of the En with out physical help ).

So after a year she had not only a new perspective, was moved by it all, and was also utilizing the very same means in her own practice and to share practice with others

All of this to say that all things were once new technology - language, written language, books... and as mentioned, it all boils down to the sincerity of the persons involved (and understanding the limitations of the media, medium and what is registered between our ears!).

Gassho
Shohei

[Nenka]

Re: Buddhist Geeks 230: The Internet Is Not Your Teacher

Wow, Shohei, that's an awesome story! I remember being a bit skeptical about Treeleaf at first myself (anybody else? anybody? ), but the more I dug in . . . and especially now, moving past my reservations about skype etc. and getting to know and see everybody, the greater it becomes.

BTW--a couple months ago, I read some article about the latest Facebook problems or somesuch . . . in the comments, a woman went off about how Facebook isn't a good way to keep in touch with family and old friends because "that's what the telephone is for!" Yeah, um, 100 years ago the telephone pretty much WAS Facebook, and just as reviled and mistrusted by some.

Time sorts out all things, I suppose.

Gassho

Jen

EDIT--listened to the podcast . . . I will say one thing, he kinda got me with that "sitting down together and having dinner" bit. How wonderful it would be to have dinner with you all in "realspace" at a very long table.

[Hoyu]

Re: Buddhist Geeks 230: The Internet Is Not Your Teacher

Thank you Shohei for sharing, I've been anxious to hear about this!

Shohei wrote:
She said first that she was now sitting with a group via skype in Florida(!) and that she was amazed by the ease of the tech and by the connectedness, seeing eye to eye as(more lens to lens). and able to share this practice with over many miles and timezones (hehe sounds familiar!).

Wonderful!! This was most touching

Jennifer wrote:
BTW--a couple months ago, I read some article about the latest Facebook problems or somesuch . . . in the comments, a woman went off about how Facebook isn't a good way to keep in touch with family and old friends because "that's what the telephone is for!" Yeah, um, 100 years ago the telephone pretty much WAS Facebook, and just as reviled and mistrusted by some.

Great point!

Gassho,
John

[Nindo]

Re: Buddhist Geeks 230: The Internet Is Not Your Teacher

Thanks for bringing this up, Chris. I selectively listen to Buddhist geeks, but probably wouldn't have downloaded this one if it hadn't been for this thread. I listened to it yesterday (while sewing! :P ) and thought it was a good talk.

What I see with people who flit in and out of our very small local sangha is that they use the internet to collect a dharma talk here and a podcast there but never settle down to a steady practice. They think all the wisdom is outside of themselves and to be received from this overwhelming offering of books and the internet. I may be judging in error, but I don't see these people digging to the ground of the teaching and apply it to their lives. It's more like "I'm so depressed today, maybe a dharma talk will make me feel good".

Now this may be nothing new as Jundo pointed out, but I think the internet makes it particularly easy to non-commit and "build your own religion". Ethan said in his talk that a teacher met face to face will probably say something at some stage that you don't want to hear - and that's exactly where most people tune out. To use the dharma just as far as it makes people feel good and agrees with their opinions is just more selfishness getting them nowhere.

I think that there needs to be a certain degree of "submission" to practice, Konstantin, otherwise we are just picking and choosing (that is, to practice, not to a "guru"). Within practice, teachers and sangha challenge us out of our comfort zone and that's where the ego cracks open.

[ChrisA]

Re: Buddhist Geeks 230: The Internet Is Not Your Teacher

Thanks, Nindo. Your response was far more articulate than mine was. I think that you've captured some of what made the piece more than "internet-dharma bashing" for me.

Indeed, it illuminated what was valuable and human about the practice of everyone here at Treeleaf for me. Well, at least, on most days....

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[Jundo]

Re: Buddhist Geeks 230: The Internet Is Not Your Teacher

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Ah, since it is now September, perhaps I should remind folks that that was our April Fool's tribute .. this year, a satirical look at the Genpo Roshi scandals. I am not actually having an affair with Taigu, and we will not have a new brand of Treeleaf ski and swimwear. ops:

A few people have written me to ask if it is true.

Gassho, J

[ChrisA]

Re: Buddhist Geeks 230: The Internet Is Not Your Teacher

I admit to disappointment in learning that -- alas! -- there will be no Big Organ spin-off.

[Shugen]

Re: Buddhist Geeks 230: The Internet Is Not Your Teacher

A few people have written me to ask if it is true.

Gassho, J

:lol: