enlightenment

[Patrick]

:wink:

[Taylor]

Re: enlightenment

Don't worry about it

Seriously though. The more you worry about "is this it?! is this it?!" the more you miss the present moment. And in this moment, everything is complete. If you can taste tea just as tea, see sun as the sun, be with rain as it rains, cry when you're sad, smile when you're happy, then you're living your life. What else could there be?

So, in short, don't look forward, don't look backwards for that "WOW!" moment. Each moment is worth a "WOW!", even the ones that don't seem like it.

[Taylor]

Re: enlightenment

Also, don't worry about my response! Just my words, my silly musings

[Patrick]

Re: enlightenment

[Seiryu]

Re: enlightenment

Enlightenment is just the realization that there is no problem, and that there was never any problem to begin with. The realization that you, me and the world has never been lacking anything.

You will know. When the last blockage that is keeping you from seeing the world clearly has fallen off you will see and realize the "falling away of body and mind" that Dogen spoke about.

Enlightenment is not some mysterious state. It is simply you in your purest state, free from the corruption of ideals and concepts.

[Kyotai]

Re: enlightenment

I had some very "enlightening" zazen experiences in particular in 2007-2008. For one reason or another its those years that really stand out. But of course, wanting to keep it, or grab ahold of it, or "aha, is this it?" Caused me to loose it. I have never meditated with a goal, other then to perhaps be here and now, perhaps even that is holding me back.

Shawn...

[natezenmaster]

Re: enlightenment

Tetsu,

Regarding a master recognizing enlightenment... It can seem confusing.. particularly with the stories about one master talking to a student or another master and they test each other. That makes it seem like there is a ladder and if you climb up the steps then you arrive. There are also those that study koan's, like what's the sound of one dog clapping... no wait, ... you see there are koans as well and so it can appear that if you answer correctly then you move up a step toward enlightenment. We also refer to "the path" which makes it seem like we have a direction and end goal.. Similarly, there are stories of a guy stubbing his toe and then getting it.. all of these make it sound like there is something to get. Like there is something to achieve or obtain, like a gift... or something you don't have. There is the time when one receives the transmission and so on and so on... Thus there are different traditions and different paths that one may see to think you get it or your master sees you and then you get it... and perhaps Jundo or Taigu can talk to working with a master and the traditions or recognizing things... but as others here have tried to post.. there is nothing to get, which is everything. Dogen equated practice, zazen, to enlightenment and enlightenment to zazen... or practice. It is a practice... no end. TO say you got it is to lose it and to lose it is to gain it...

Dogen himself wrote that you could look through all of China (or a province) and not be able to find any one person that is not enlightened.. of course you could say the same of delusion. Its all and none.. being and so on. Its not a final state, resting place, etc..

But what do I know... hope this helped.

_/_ Nate

[Taylor]

Re: enlightenment

Hi !

Just a quick one : I am not worrying about enlightenment, I just whant to know how the masters knew...

How did Dogen knew ?

How did Nishijima knew ?

Did they had to confirm it with there masters ?

Just asking,

-T

Don't limit yourself, don't limit "enlightenment", don't limit life. Swallow all of it up.

[Taigu]

Re: enlightenment

Hi tetsugakucha,

We don't get enlightened, enlightenement gets us...
Returning to the ocean samadhi is enlightenement itself. Practice here and now is enlightenment. Everything else is a dream or another greedy agenda.
Along the way you might get terrific sceneries, lovely moments, impressive insights. As long as it is about getting and having, you are fooling yourself.
Enlightenement is not aware of itself.
Please read and study genjokoan. Read and study genjokoan in the flesh. Sit.
A teacher is with you to help you undoing, unpacking, getting much lighter, getting rid of your beliefs, ideas about this and that, ideas about yourself and others, and above all: ideas about enlightenment...
A teacher is a person that doesn't give you notions or potions but make it possible for you to forget the self and fully accept-see-live things as they are.
A teacher is the witness of something that cannot see itself, of something that is not aware of itself.

And in my very limited experience, transmission happens when every single cell of your body-mind does't care about it anymore.


gassho


Taigu

[Hans]

Re: enlightenment

Hello,

thank you Taigu for your crystal clear response.

On a personal note I would just like to add my two novice cents by simply stating that I find it a lot more fitting to use the term "awakening" a lot of times instead of "enlightenment".

It is true that many practitioners of the past have also resorted to describing their great openings and related experiences in terms of light analogies and metaphors (....Turn the light inward...etc.). However IMHO the words" waking up" are often a lot more clear because they are less glamorous and point to everyday activity. Like e.g. "waking up" in the morning.

Gassho and deep bows to all those whose daily practise is the never ending recognition and enactment of awakened thusness as it is,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[andyZ]

Re: enlightenment

Hi !

Just a quick one : I am not worrying about enlightenment, I just whant to know how the masters knew...

How did Dogen knew ?

Dogen studied with Master Rujing. One evening during the intensive summer training, in the first year of Pao-chang, 1225, Rujing shouted at a disciple, “When you study under a master, you must drop the body and mind. What is the use of single-minded intense sleeping?”

Sitting right beside this monastic, Dogen suddenly attained great enlightenment. Immediately, he went up to the abbot’s room and burned incense. Rujing said, “Why are you burning incense?” Dogen said, “Body and mind have been dropped off.” Rujing said, “Body and mind dropped off. The dropped-off body and mind.” Dogen said, “This may only be a temporary ability. Please don’t approve me arbitrarily.” Rujing said, “I am not.” Dogen said, “What is that which isn’t given arbitrary approval?” Rujing said, “Body and mind dropped off.” Dogen bowed. Rujing said, “The dropping off is dropped.”

http://mro.org/zmm/teachings/daido/teisho29.php

[Dokan]

Re: enlightenment

Enlightenement is not aware of itself.

Thank you.

Shawn

[Patrick]

Re: enlightenment

Thank you to all of you for your answers !

-Tetsugakucha

[Seiryu]

Re: enlightenment

Hi tetsugakucha,

We don't get enlightened, enlightenement gets us...
Returning to the ocean samadhi is enlightenement itself. Practice here and now is enlightenment. Everything else is a dream or another greedy agenda.
Along the way you might get terrific sceneries, lovely moments, impressive insights. As long as it is about getting and having, you are fooling yourself.
Enlightenement is not aware of itself.
Please read and study genjokoan. Read and study genjokoan in the flesh. Sit.
A teacher is with you to help you undoing, unpacking, getting much lighter, getting rid of your beliefs, ideas about this and that, ideas about yourself and others, and above all: ideas about enlightenment...
A teacher is a person that doesn't give you notions or potions but make it possible for you to forget the self and fully accept-see-live things as they are.
A teacher is the witness of something that cannot see itself, of something that is not aware of itself.

And in my very limited experience, transmission happens when every single cell of your body-mind does't care about it anymore.


gassho


Taigu

_/_

[Nindo]

Re: enlightenment

On a personal note I would just like to add my two novice cents by simply stating that I find it a lot more fitting to use the term "awakening" a lot of times instead of "enlightenment".

I'm with you on that, Chudo.