enlightenment

[ChrisA]

Re: enlightenment

Temple bells die out.
The fragrant blossoms remain.
A perfect evening!

---- Basho

I thought it was,

The fragrant blossoms die out.
Temple bells remain.
A perfect evening!

[JohnsonCM]

Re: enlightenment

This might be lengthy, and if it is, I’m sorry in advance.

From many of the posts, it looks like the idea that “enlightenment” is a thing or a level of awareness is still present. I don’t think it is something that can be so easily categorized.

That always seems to be the question, when the topic of enlightenment comes up. “What is it?”, “What’s it like?”, “How will I know…?” No one can answer this because to try and define it would limit it. If it was limited to where our discriminating minds could grasp it, then it would be unworthy to be called enlightenment. Chet said earlier that our idea of enlightenment gets in the way of enlightenment just as much as our ignorance of enlightenment does. I can’t think of a better way to say it. I think that those who have not attained enlightenment ask about attaining enlightenment, and those who have attained enlightenment have no idea what “enlightenment” might be, and would tell you that they’ve attained nothing. This seems dualistic, but in reality it couldn’t be further from simple dualism. If anything it would be omni-ism. As an exercise, pick something in the room you are in and look at it. That may be the focus of your attention, but it isn’t all you see. You see things beyond the object you’re looking at, behind it, underneath it, in front of it, on the surface of it. You also see things out of the corner of your eye, off to the side, in your peripheral vision.

Enlightenment, life itself (in fact, how could you truly separate the two?) are like that. You can’t simply focus on something to the exclusion of all else. It isn’t possible. Instead you can only choose to focus on something, and willfully ignore the manifold things (some might say “myriad”) that surround, support, permeate, and penetrate it. How can you think to simply reach out and grab the fish, if you don’t also take into account the water the fish is in? Because we are human, because we delude ourselves in to believing that we can segment and compartmentalize things to the point that we can now control them, we forget that everything is inherently “what it is”, completely interconnected. We try to force the square peg into the round hole; we try to arrange life in a nice, neat, tidy way with all our labels and discriminations. Perhaps enlightenment is simply realizing that this is not the case. Life is far to complex for that, far to complex to be pigeon-holed into an organized little compartment made special for us to understand it. And it is this complexity that shows us how simple life truly is. When we let go of the ideas and beliefs that we have, the ones that we have made all our lives in the attempt to exert our will on existence and reality, we can truly appreciate life for what it IS. That old saying, “you can’t see the forest for the trees.” is limited. You can’t see the forest for the trees, the dirt, the air, the leaves, the squirrels, the poison ivy, the logging truck, the path to the left of the stream, etc. There is so much, but at the same time, it’s all forest.

Basically, don’t try to slice things up. Don’t try to divide “enlightenment” from every other aspect of every day life. It’s a total package kind of thing. Enlightenment is just as much crying at the death of a family pet, or walking down the road and stepping in dog crap, as it is realizing the interconnectedness of all things. See life for what it is, and BE part of it, BE with it, BE it. If you can do that, maybe you’ll attain enlightenment, but who cares?

[Hoyu]

Re: enlightenment


_/_

[Jundo]

Re: enlightenment

If it was limited to where our discriminating minds could grasp it, then it would be unworthy to be called enlightenment. Chet said earlier that our idea of enlightenment gets in the way of enlightenment just as much as our ignorance of enlightenment does. I can’t think of a better way to say it. I think that those who have not attained enlightenment ask about attaining enlightenment, and those who have attained enlightenment have no idea what “enlightenment” might be

Well, how about we close this conversation by saying that talking about and defining such things is a bit like talking about "what is love-&-marriage?". Yes, "love" is a profound sense of union that must be experienced ("enlightenment" is also a union between self and other, but one in which barriers between oneself and all this life-self-world soften or, maybe at times, fully drop away). However, "love" is a union that cannot be expressed adequately in words, and even the finest poets fail to capture it.

What's more, sometimes, one might fall "head over heals" in love, get all starry eyed ... feel like the honeymoon will last forever! (That is how many folks fall into the "honeymoon" of emptiness too). That is wonderful!!!! .... but only the start of the real story of "love" and relationship. The starry eyes folks all smitten ... don't have a clue to all the dimensions and richness of "love".

For "love-&-marriage" is where the real action is, where the love and relationship is truly brought to life and tested, something that must be worked out to make it real, fruitful, balanced and wholesome ... a constantly changing adventure of happy days and tears as life meet all its ups and downs, and the years pass. "Love alone" won't get a couple far. One has to do it (and do it well!) to truly understand what a "successful marriage" is. Patience and stamina are a part, as is acceptance and allowing (even perhaps on those days in any marriage when it might feel that "love" is no where near :cry: ). It returns, it grows with time. It is a Practice!

To try to explain these things is a bit like a young fella, never in love or married, asking grandpa to describe in a few sentence what his 50 year marriage has been like. :shock: Could or would grandpa even begin to know what to say?

Something like that.

So, we might as well be trying to describe in a few words "what is love & marriage". So it is with "practice-enlightenment".

The one thing I can tell you for sure is that you can find this on the Zafu, then bring it into all one's life. That's where we tie the knot.

Gassho, J

[Yugen]

Re: enlightenment

Sometimes I want to contribute to a discussion thread (such as this one) and then ask myself "how can I discuss enlightenment?" I wouldn't even know what it looks, feels, tastes, walks, or sounds like.... so I'll just go sit.

The conundrum I find myself in is in discussing Zen I move even further far away from it... perhaps that is why I lurk rather than post more frequently.... it is indescribable for me, and my experience is unique, as I am sure it is for each of us. Thank you for such a wonderful discussion in sharing each of your experiences.

Gassho,
Yugen

[Dokan]

Re: enlightenment

Sometimes I want to contribute to a discussion thread (such as this one) and then ask myself "how can I discuss enlightenment?" I wouldn't even know what it looks, feels, tastes, walks, or sounds like.... so I'll just go sit.

The conundrum I find myself in is in discussing Zen I move even further far away from it... perhaps that is why I lurk rather than post more frequently.... it is indescribable for me, and my experience is unique, as I am sure it is for each of us. Thank you for such a wonderful discussion in sharing each of your experiences.

That's great Yugen. You spoke my mind. I *feel* much like you, however I find I typically open my mouth and then later read what I said and realize I'm a complete idiot. Honestly, the only thing that I know for sure is that zazen practice is where I should be. I love talking about zen but most of the time I really should just shut up and sit down (_/_ Brad Warner).

Gassho,

Shawn

[JohnsonCM]

Re: enlightenment

That's the kicker, isn't it? We come to an online sangha (well any sangha would be the same really) and we try to talk about something "beyond words and letters". But these discussions we have help to clear some of the debris of delusion from the Path, and inevitably, some one will break out with the "stop trying to figure it out and just sit." And I think that the discussions we have get our minds in the right place for that "just sit" to hit us just right to where we say, "Yeah! That's true. I should just sit."

[disastermouse]

Re: enlightenment

Whether you talk about it or not, whether you are 'head over heels' with the idea of enlightenment or are jaded and think it doesn't exist....

You can set down both ideas, stop pushing so hard, and sit. Don't worry about what enlightenment is, what is 'this'? 'This' is the only thing you have any sort of thing approaching 'direct access' to, so what the heck is it? If someone describes as perfectly as possible what enlightenment is or isn't.....I think it's something you have to taste for yourself - but here's the kicker, as far as I can tell, enlightenment is what you're tasting now. It isn't anything else. What else is there? There's this moment, and then an idea of enlightenment which is also a part of this moment. But what is that idea made of? Where does it come from?

Sometimes I think people want to sit still and experience some great 'other', some great something that isn't this thing right in front of you. No, no, it can't be this, this is what I'm trying to get rid of, trying to change into something else. But what would it be if you weren't trying to change it to something else? Just what is it? Directly, what is it? You can't know it by standing apart and calling it, IMHO. Sink back into it, take the backward step and just 'don't know' for a second or two. Can you do that?

Chet

[Yugen]

Re: enlightenment

Chet,
Exactly on the mark - thank you! The concept of "not knowing"- how difficult to sit and just be OK with that - not only OK but find opportunity for living life as it is in the space of "not knowing" and finding opportunities for discovery, happiness,appreciation, and sadness, grief - all of life's emotional terrain. That's my big challenge - I have lived life so afraid of "not knowing" that I have not really lived at all. Now "not knowing" is a barometer for where I am on a particular day. Thank you for a spot on post.

Gassho,
Yugen

[ChrisA]

Re: enlightenment

The concept of "not knowing"- how difficult to sit and just be OK with that - not only OK but find opportunity for living life as it is in the space of "not knowing" and finding opportunities for discovery, happiness,appreciation, and sadness, grief - all of life's emotional terrain. That's my big challenge - I have lived life so afraid of "not knowing" that I have not really lived at all. Now "not knowing" is a barometer for where I am on a particular day.

What a great way to frame it, Yugen. Gassho!