Thinking Too Much

[BruceS]

Something I've done throughout not only my life, but particularly throughout my Buddhist "career" (back before I just quit for some years) is to think too much. Hey I'm an engineer. That's what we're trained to do! :lol:

Whatever formal Buddhist training I've had up 'till now was in the Nyingma school of Tibetan Buddhism. The Nyingmapa are not nearly as analytical as the Gelugpa, but there's still a lot more analytical contemplation than with Zen. I have more thoughts about theory and technique come up in my meditation than any other kind of everyday thoughts. Sometimes I just have to tell myself to shut the hell up!!

Something I've determined to try not to do now is to study too much and think too much - the operative word being try. I'm going to try to just listen to Jundo and do a lot of zazen. That's it. What was that discussion about faith? Not sure it's faith because I know the process works, so I'm just going to do it. Ok, I"m going to try to do it. :lol:
Gassho,
Bruce

[Ryumon]

One thing I've done recently is (more or less) stop reading dharma books. I find that sitting, listening to Jundo's talks, and reading this forum, are sufficient. I, too, started in the Tibetan tradition, and have read, probably, more than 100 books on Tibetan Buddhism, along with many on Theravada and Zen. But some time ago, I realised that all those books were just part of the Buddhism industry, and now only have a few that I re-read from time to time.

Kirk

[BruceS]

Yeah I agree. I've realized that my obsessive study is just another attachment that needs to be dropped. Before I moved to England, I had a 5 shelf bookcase that was totally packed with books from Theravada, Zen, and Tibetan Buddhist teachers. I had books stacked on top of books and had read them all, at least once.

Sometimes you just have to shoot all the engineers and finish the project! :lol:

[Don Niederfrank]

Yeah I agree. I've realized that my obsessive study is just another attachment that needs to be dropped. Before I moved to England, I had a 5 shelf bookcase that was totally packed with books from Theravada, Zen, and Tibetan Buddhist teachers. I had books stacked on top of books and had read them all, at least once.

Sometimes you just have to shoot all the engineers and finish the project! :lol:

LOL!
Bruce, this is sort of tangential but reading your note I was reminded of my early days in recovery (ex-addict) and had like 5-7 devotional books I would read every morning. My out-patient doc/mentor asked me if I was doing a daily meditation and I listed the books I read. He just laughed and said, "Maybe just two or three would be a little more balanced."

I always think I have to 'over-do'. ops:

[Urug]

Yeah I agree. I've realized that my obsessive study is just another attachment that needs to be dropped. Before I moved to England, I had a 5 shelf bookcase that was totally packed with books from Theravada, Zen, and Tibetan Buddhist teachers. I had books stacked on top of books...

Beloved Bruce,

I understand what you're saying. I have a bookcase filled with books on Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Islam, Sufism, etc...

Finally it occured to me that unless I started putting some of the ideas in these books into actual practice, it was like having maps and guide books to every foriegn country on earth without ever going anywhere. Or knowing everyting there is to know about musical instuments and music theory, but without actually being able to play music. Once I actually started practicing what I had read about, I was amazed at the changes in my life, and my subjective experience of being.

One thing that sometimes concerns me, is that I have found it difficult to follow only one specific path. I am most closely drawn to Buddhism, but also find great inspiration and guidance from Taoism and Sufism, as well as the Earth based religions, and also some of the teachings of Jesus, and Eckhart Tolle. I also have found exceptionally wonderful growth through Charles Berner's "Enlightenment Intensives".

One of the things I used to think too much about was whether I should make myself choose one denomination and just stick to that. Now I feel more comfortable with doing what I do.

Where I am mostly at these days is witnessing or just being aware of how much time my mind spends daydreaming or rehashing old material. Driving in the car today my mind just jumped from one topic to another while "I" watched it as I tried to keep my mind on driving and being present in the now. I could ease into the present and feel the joy of driving through the beautiful countryside and be there...and then realize that I was thinking about something that happened yesterday or something that was coming up tomorrow. But not really anything useful, just compulsive monkey mind thought. Then I would bring myself back to the present, and stay here for a little while, before I would be right back thinking about something. And so the drive went. Pretty much how most of my time these days goes. I am getting better at noticing when I am back in my head and not in the present, and then focusing my attention on the now.

Does anyone have any techniques that help them keep in the present throughout the day, rather than being stuck in their thoughts?

Thanks.

Namaste...Peace...Love...Light...Gassho...

Urug 8)

[Ryumon]

No, but let me share you an "odd" technique that I seem to have developed spontaneuosly when I was a teenager, and used often when I was walking long distances in a slightly drug-induced haze. I don't know why I started doing this, but it had profound effects on my understanding (implicitly) why my "mind" jumps from one thing to another.

Every once in a while, I stop and think about what I am thinking about. Since our thoughts tend to jump from one thing to another not in random order, but by connections, I then think about what thought I had _before_ the current thought, and what the link was. (Example: I'm thinking about the blue sky, and I realize that my previous thought was about the sun, and before that I was thinking about how warm it was, and before that I was thinking that my shirt was itching, etc...) Occasionally, I'd get to the point where there was no originating thought, and I'd hit a sort of big empty space.

This worked much better when I was under the influence, but I still do it from time to time. It doesn't stop me thinking, but it arrests the thoughts in their track, stripping them of their power to "take control" of my mind.

Kirk

[BruceS]

Dear Urug,
Whenever I feel myself spinning out of control, I just mentally stop and breath consciously and deeply several times, paying attention to the breath like you would do when you first begin zazen. Then, just put your mind fully into whatever it is you're doing. Let your task be your meditation. When your mind starts spinning up again, go back to your breath. Works most of the time for me. If it's really bad and I'm not doing something I have to concentrate on, I'll recite a mantra (in my head). Same principle. Your point of concentration becomes the mantra rather than thoughts. The first method is probably more Zen than the second.

I was very much like you for a long time, and had a difficult time choosing a single path. There is more than one path as they say, but I think at some point we have have to decide if we're going to be a serious practitioner of a path and just choose it. For me, it was down to the Zen way or the Tibetan way. I'm just mentally more in tune with the Zen way so I've chosen this, and further, I've chosen to stick with one teacher. Jundo's lineage in Soto Zen is what I've sought for years so I grabbed at the chance. Doesn't mean I don't still have a soft spot for some of the Tibetan ways, but I think we need to chose one path to follow for awhile if we're to be really serious about it.
Gassho,
Bruce

[Urug]

Beloved Brothers Kirk & Bruce,

Thank you for the ideas. I will try them today.

The biggest piece of the puzzle for me is usually noticing that I am lost in thought again and not here now. It's like that time in the early morning where you wake up and are laying in bed, then without realizing it you've slipped back into sleep and are dreaming again.

For me it's like that during the day. I am here now and aware, then minutes (or more) later I realize I've just driven miles on autopiplot and have been day dreaming as it were. Then it's back to now... back to thoughts... back to now etc...

Well the roosters are crowing. It's time to feed the chickens.

Namaste...Love...Gassho...

Urug 8)

[BruceS]

I think maybe you're just human, Urug! Not sure if you saw this other part of my reply because I was editing my post as you were typing, so I'll put it in this reply.

I was very much like you for a long time, and had a difficult time choosing a single path. There is more than one path as they say, but I think at some point we have to decide if we're going to be a serious practitioner of a path and just choose it. For me, it was down to the Zen way or the Tibetan way. I'm just mentally more in tune with the Zen way so I've chosen this, and further, I've chosen to stick with one teacher. Jundo's lineage in Soto Zen is what I've sought for years so I grabbed at the chance. Doesn't mean I don't still have a soft spot for some of the Tibetan ways, but I think we need to chose one path to follow for awhile if we're to be really serious about it.
Gassho,
Bruce

[will]

Wow. So many posts. Didn't read them all. Don't know if I'm just repeating.

Basically this thinking that "you" are the one having the experience is the problem. I think it's about just enjoying your experience. Being human, without overthinking everything. You get up, you wash, you eat(when your hungry) you taste your food, you ride your skateboard(or that's just me) and you just do stuff without hesitation.

For so many years I have been caught up in believing all these stories that i told myslef. Stories about people, and about things. Zen is a practice to realize who and what you are. When you realize that. You can laugh at yourself for believing you were something else. Then you can do what you do without worrying about it (because it's usually not something to worry about.

Man. Have I worried about so many things because that was just a habit I had throughout my life. Since we are children we accumulate all these habit , tendencies and fantasies that really in truth aren't anything. Since I was a child I always had a fear of going to jail for doing something wrong. Now it might seem funny and it is, but I really believed it and it caused so much fear. This is only one example. Now after practicing zen it's a matter of knowing that that fear has nothing to do with me and what created that fear is just a lack of opening attention and believing that idea (I don't want to go to jail) haha. Anyway. It's all the same. Fear of going to jail or fear of smelly socks, believing zen is this or zen is that.

Practicing zazen is a chance to stop believing in all this stuff and start enjoying yourself.



Gassho

[Urug]

Beloved Brother Will,

Basically this thinking that "you" are the one having the experience is the problem...

Thank you. This simple statement really put things into perspective for me (or for whoever is or is not having this experience).

This concept goes far deeper than me believing I am "thinking too much". It challenges the fundamental assumption of who am I.

I have been "thinking too much" about "thinking too much", when the real issue appears to be "sitting too little".

I (or whoever I am) am now feeling a powerful desire to sit more regularly.

Thank you brother.

Namaste...Gassho...

Urug

[Jundo]

Dear Uruq, A Beloved Other/Not Other,

One thing that sometimes concerns me, is that I have found it difficult to follow only one specific path. I am most closely drawn to Buddhism, but also find great inspiration and guidance from Taoism and Sufism, as well as the Earth based religions, and also some of the teachings of Jesus, and Eckhart Tolle. I also have found exceptionally wonderful growth through Charles Berner's "Enlightenment Intensives".

I find nothing wrong in doing this, I find wisdom in many sources.

The only cautions are that it can become "Enlightenment Shopping", and a light skimming of this and that and the other thing. It is necessary to pick a core practice and stay with that with diligence and consistency (and, of course, I have an opinion on which one!) If you want to dip into a bit of Rumi now and then, or the Tibetans have a good take on some point of the Precepts, or Jesus ... that is fine. However, be cautious about mixing and matching at your discretion. (It is rather like studying synchronized swimming, Karate and Salsa dancing, then trying to combine them into a single art... though there are some similarities, common points and areas of harmony, good chance you will end up with a messy mix).

Some of the teachings are not compatible. You have to have a discerning eye. Also, there is endless bullshit, new age nonsense and guru hucksterism out there ... know the teachings with value from the fluff and trash. If you do not know, try to find a teacher who you think might help you tell the difference (e.g., stay far far away from the Andrew Cohens [no relation], Adyashantis and Sai Babas of this world ... and I am not too crazy about Echart Tolle, although some of his writings are beautiful).

Where I am mostly at these days is witnessing or just being aware of how much time my mind spends daydreaming or rehashing old material. Driving in the car today my mind just jumped from one topic to another while "I" watched it as I tried to keep my mind on driving and being present in the now. I could ease into the present and feel the joy of driving through the beautiful countryside and be there...and then realize that I was thinking about something that happened yesterday or something that was coming up tomorrow. But not really anything useful, just compulsive monkey mind thought. Then I would bring myself back to the present, and stay here for a little while, before I would be right back thinking about something. And so the drive went. Pretty much how most of my time these days goes. I am getting better at noticing when I am back in my head and not in the present, and then focusing my attention on the now.

Doing that is good. Also, daydreaming sometimes is good. Having your mind completely focused on the moment and what is in front of you is good. Having your mind jump about sometimes is good. Being present with the passing beautiful scenery is good. Ignoring the passing beautiful scenery and thinking about the baseball season or your new tires is good.

There is a time for all things, and a time not for things. That includes even a sense of "self" or a time for not being particularly "mindful".

Take life, and being human, easy.

This may not only be a picture of Buddha reclining for meditation, but may be him camped out on the sofa watching tv reruns. I think.

Does anyone have any techniques that help them keep in the present throughout the day, rather than being stuck in their thoughts?

I would just bring your mind back to mindfulness again and again, from time to time, 100 times a day. But, do not expect or try to be mindful all through the day, That is like eating ice cream from morning till night. A silly thing, and it will ruin you in the end.

Animals may be mindful all through the day, but they have minds that are simple and don't allow them any of the other beautiful things (like daydreaming) which a human mind can do. It is good to rediscover your inner cat, or mountain or rock ... because we have forgotten that. However, we should not seek to be those completely, at least not for most of the time.

I think.

Gassho, Jundo


PS- A lot of gurus and such, trying to sell books, will imply that they are always enlightened, always mindful and "aware". They are, as far as any evidence I have ever seen about any of them, full of it. Even if there are some folks who have trained themselves to live that way for much of the day, and some truly glorious beings (Ajahn Chah comes to mind) ... that lifestyle is not very helpful outside a Wat in a sheltered forest where it can be artificially maintained by withdrawing from the world that most of us must live in.

I mean, this Sadhu may really really be on to something. I just don't think it a good way to live most of the time.

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[BruceS]

I can't help but think a cardboard box would've been easier :lol:

[Urug]

Beloved Jundo,

Thank you for your answer. I find it very helpful.

It is necessary to pick a core practice and stay with that with diligence and consistency...

I am feeling a pull towards going deeper into one tradition. It seems that while I as my mind want to make a rational thoughtful decission to choose a path, my feelings keep bringing me back to one tradition that just feels like home. I do it because that's what I do. So it seems that while my mind was trying to choose a path, a path has already chosen me.

Thank you for this wonderful site and for sharing your wisdom with me.

Namaste...Peace...Love...Gassho...

Urug

[Keishin]

Hello Urug:
I don't think it really matters ultimately which group you choose--it's a question of staying with it. I think of it as baking or cooking something--
it starts to bubble and then you're taking it out and putting into another pot. It certainly can be done....but...going into a new pot temporarily stops the cooking that was in motion until things heat up again.
All analogies fail at some point, but you get the idea here.
I think of religions as different paths to the mountain top. (Even though Zen is not necessarily practiced as a religion...) To get to the top of the mountain, all you have to do is stay on one path long enough.
Switching back and forth will most likely keep you below the top of the mountain.
Again, an analogy which can only stretch so far... even so, I hope you follow my thoughts...

You sound well read and versatile- with an open mind and a variety of experiences-this can make it harder to choose. Where can you be most intimate with yourself--where can you really drop all the veils. That's going to be the one...like dating a lot of people and then considering marriage--all those suitors might be cool to hang out with on dates--but which one can you live your life with.
Yet another analogy destined to fail... but nevertheless, something along those lines...
And, as in dating--you can do it for a while, and see how it goes!
Don't look for a group or a teacher to rock your world. Just look for a group practicing ordinary life.
Have fun along the way.
gassho,
keishin