Thinking Too Much

[Urug]

Beloved others,

I often find myself caught up in the various discussions going on here, and have to stop and ask myself what I am doing. At times it seems to me that so much of what appears important to me is just more thoughts about illusion, or defending an intelectual opinion to strenghten a false sense of self.

But then I remember Jundo's words that "everything is perfectly what it is", and I wonder what I should be doing do in terms of spiritual practice, or if it really matters. If everything is as it is, then what more can I add to reality by trying harder or doing more? If there is no I, then who is trying, and what is there to accomplish? If the ultimate goal is to be where I am, then isn't any activity or practice or desire jsut taking me farther from my goal? And is not having a goal taking me farther from my goal? It almost turns into a koan: How do you change without the desire to change? How do you achieve your goal without having a goal?

All I am left with is this old quote:

"Is there anything I can do to make myself enlightened?"
"As little as you can do to make the sun rise in the morning."
"Then of what use are the spiritual exercises you prescribe?"
"To make sure you are not asleep when the sun begins to rise."

May we all be awake to see the dawn.

Namaste...

Gassho...

Urug

[Urug]

Beloved Harry,

If our thoughts/ ourselves are an illusion, everything is an illusion; why should the dawn be more deserving of attention than our thoughts?

Exactly what I am contemplating. If everything is "an illusion" or if everything is "perfectly what it is", then what is the point of spiritual practice?

What is there to do in order to be where you already are?

Gassho,

Urug

[Urug]

Beloved Harry,

It has often seemed to me that many enlightened masters, teach a different method than that which actually brought them to their own awakening.

Did not Buddha become awakened when he stopped what he was doing?

Eckhart Tolle became enlightened at the depths of an existential crisis in the midst of suicidal depression, yet he obviously teaches a different route.

I wonder some times whether being attached to a particular path is itself an impediment to awakening. I wonder if just being aware in each moment is enough.

What else is there to do?

Gassho,

Urug

[Urug]

Beloved other,

We are aware moment-to-moment anyway, otherwise we would be dead or something. I'm not sure its a good idea to maintain the awareness and attitude of Zazen from moment-to-moment in our lives, but it is said, and I agree, that our Zazen action pervades our lives and our world like the reverberations of a bell.

I'm not sure we are aware moment-to-moment. It seems to me that most of the time we are in a kind of walking sleep living inside our thoughts rather than being aware of the present moment. When I am able to bring my awareness into the present moment there is a wonderful change in the subjective experience of being. It is like being fully alive. Everything is alive and conected and beautiful. It usually only lasts for a brief while before I go back to living in my thoughts again, but each time I'm able to get here a little easier and stay a little longer.

It is easier for me to slip into this state of awareness in "regular" life than when I am sitting. It seems to me to be how we are supposed to be. Here and now in the moment unless something needs to be done, then doing it and back to being in the moment. Thinking when it is called for, being present when there is no need for thinking.

Maybe I'm just a heretic, but that seems to be working for me.

And yet it feels like there is still something more to do...

Namaste and peace,

Urug

[cdshrack]

I'm not sure we are aware moment-to-moment. It seems to me that most of the time we are in a kind of walking sleep living inside our thoughts rather than being aware of the present moment. When I am able to bring my awareness into the present moment there is a wonderful change in the subjective experience of being. It is like being fully alive. Everything is alive and conected and beautiful. It usually only lasts for a brief while before I go back to living in my thoughts again, but each time I'm able to get here a little easier and stay a little longer.

It is easier for me to slip into this state of awareness in "regular" life than when I am sitting. It seems to me to be how we are supposed to be. Here and now in the moment unless something needs to be done, then doing it and back to being in the moment. Thinking when it is called for, being present when there is no need for thinking.

I agree with you through much of this, Urug. And, i think, the "goal" of practice is this awareness, which comes when we are not lost in our thoughts. As many have pointed out, when we are sitting and hear a bird, a bell, a car driving by it brings us back to our awareness.

My own awareness is frequently more difficult to maintain when sitting, as the distractions are mental (shopping lists, my girlfriend arriving in three weeks), not physical (the kettle boiling, the neighbors opening their door). This is what you are describing as well, i think. Yes, more difficult. It's like lifting a hundred pounds instead of fifty, i think, and perhaps more beneficial? Maybe someday we will be aware moment-to-moment.

Above all, i don't think about it too much - i don't try not to think about it, i just don't. Or if i do, i don't think about that, either. As Yoda says, "Do or do not. There is no try." Over-analysis has historically been my downfall.

Namaste, brothers.
cd

[Urug]

Above all, i don't think about it too much - i don't try not to think about it, i just don't. Or if i do, i don't think about that, either. As Yoda says, "Do or do not. There is no try." Over-analysis has historically been my downfall.

Beloved Brothers,

I think this is the key. When I find myself overanalysing, or being lost in thought, it now will often trigger the observation that I am thinkiing habitualy rather than functionaly. This is often all I need to come back to my center and be in the moment.

My own awareness is frequently more difficult to maintain when sitting, as the distractions are mental (shopping lists, my girlfriend arriving in three weeks), not physical (the kettle boiling, the neighbors opening their door). This is what you are describing as well, i think. Yes, more difficult. It's like lifting a hundred pounds instead of fifty, i think, and perhaps more beneficial?

I agree with you that sitting does seem like much harder work than being in the present while I'm walking in the woods or even driving in the car. I also think that you are right that it is more beneficial. I have found that meditation intensives have been really helpful. After a couple of days I seem to finally settle and get into a much deeper stillness.

I think that both sitting and mindfullness in day-to-day activities are perhaps the key.

Harry wrote:

Re. Awareness. I think if people didn't have a certain amount of awareness they would hurt each other and themselves even more than they presently do!: they'd walk in front of cars or drive over each other, walk off the top of buildings, leave their hands in the oven when they make bread, drop litter more, smash windows for the fun of it, be cruel for no reason more... the world would be more "Mad Max"-ish etc. etc. On balance, I'd say people are still more good than bad, more aware of others than deaf to suffering...

Harry I also see your point. I think our level of awareness does impact the things we do in everyday life. When I am "lost in thought" or not being entirely present I have burned myself baking bread, cut my finger using a knife, almost had a car accident, not to mention being insensitive to those I love, and probably leaving a wake of bad karma without even noticing.

I do agree that people are more good than bad. I think Jundo would also agree ( Hmmm... where is Jundo?)

I know the Dalai Lama agrees with us. He recently said: "We humans have existed in our present form for about a hundred thousand years. I believe that if during this time the human mind had been primarily controlled by anger and hatred, our overall population would have decreased. But today, despite all our wars, we find that the human population is greater than ever. This clearly indicates to me that love and compassion predominate in the world. And this is why unpleasant events are "news"; compassionate activities are so much a part of daily life that they are taken for granted and, therefore, largely ignored."

BTW, your name "Urug"; its "Guru" mixed up, right? A mixed up guru... I like that!

Yes Harry you have decoded my name. It is guru spelled backwards. I gave myself that name to remind me that when I speak what appears to me to be truth, to always be aware that I may be 180 degrees wrong, and to not get attached to my thoughts and beliefs. To help me not make more of a false sense of self out of my spiritual practice and growth.

Peace...good night...namaste...gassho...donde esta Jundo?

Urug 8)

[Jundo]

Hi Beloved Guys,

Estoy aqui! You know, being on the other side of the world from most of you, I have to sleep and such ... It is nice to be missed. :-)

So much to do! Which leads to our subject. One thing to comment:

I'm not sure we are aware moment-to-moment. It seems to me that most of the time we are in a kind of walking sleep living inside our thoughts rather than being aware of the present moment. When I am able to bring my awareness into the present moment there is a wonderful change in the subjective experience of being. It is like being fully alive. Everything is alive and conected and beautiful. It usually only lasts for a brief while before I go back to living in my thoughts again, but each time I'm able to get here a little easier and stay a little longer.

It is easier for me to slip into this state of awareness in "regular" life than when I am sitting. It seems to me to be how we are supposed to be. Here and now in the moment unless something needs to be done, then doing it and back to being in the moment. Thinking when it is called for, being present when there is no need for thinking.

I love those moments of awareness too. They come at all sorts of times, almost every day or many times a day, and each one is a precious lesson. But, I have always thought it a misunderstanding to think that (as the "final goal" of our Practice) such states are meant to be with us all the time, or even most of the time. I even doubt that we could function in "regular" life if we were always "mindful" and aware.

One of the great misinterpretations of Buddhist practice (it arises, I think, from over-idealizing the teachings of old masters, dipping them in gold and holding their experiences up to some extreme, super-human and impossible standards) is that, for example, once we "GET IT" (whatever we are supposed to "get", e.g., "mindfulness" "satori" "balance of body/mind" etc) it never leaves us, is always the way we perceive life from that time forward, a permanent revolution of mind 24/7.

The 24/7 "enlightenment" may involve forgetting about "24/7!"

Any good thing ... like chocolate ice cream ... is not so tasty or lovely if you eat it for breakfast, lunch and dinner. I think that one of the most beautiful parts of our Practice (the real heart of "enlightment" if you will) is that we feel these "Zen Moments" sometimes, other times we are just human beings ... and we become cool with both, right to the marrow. The times we feel such ways sheds open light upon the times we do not, and the times we do not feel such ways adds a shady contrast ,,, the black/white of a good Zen ink drawing!

Right now, for example, I look at a single leaf in my garden, and I feel time stand still and the whole universe in every fold and wrinkle of that leaf. Wonderful. This morning, I was juggling train reservations and hotel bookings for a trip next week, answering the phone, taking care of leon ... multitasking, not having fun, a bit overwhelmed ...

... AND THAT IS FINE TOO!

When doing one task with all your heart, do one task.

When doing ten tasks with bits of your heart, do ten tasks.

They are both "how we are supposed to be".

When settled and balanced in Zazen, be settled and balanced.

When distracted and unsettled in Zazen, be distracted and unsettled.

They are both "how we are supposed to be".

Gassho, Jundo

[Ryumon]

Jundo,

I find your explanation interesting. Too often I have read things that suggest we should attempt to be in a state of permanent mindfulness, aware of everything all the time. That ignores the fact that our brains evolved to _not_ be aware of everything, for many reasons. We would quickly burn out if we tried to do that; being aware of my sitting position, my breathing, my hearing, the after-taste of tea in my mouth, and any thoughts that flit through my consciousness as I type this would be, well, a bit much.

I think that awareness/mindfulness is a wonderful thing - as you said, you can see the universe in a leaf. But trying to do that all the time makes it so much harder to accomplish our daily life. Perhaps if we were hermits and lived in caves, eating only what food people brought us, we would be able to do this, but as householders, it seems too much to strive for.

Kirk

[Hans]

Hello fellow Treeleafers!

A very interesting thread methinks. One thing I would like to comment on is the notion of everything being an illusion. In most Sutras and shastras I have read, it is written that reality is LIKE an illusion. The little world "like" in this instance is of prime importance IMHO. To see everything as pure illusion is dangerously close to nihilism, this notion of "everything is illusion" is itself a perfect bridge to the nihilist mindset actually.

Why do we have to practice? To really Realise these most simple and most profound truths. If you've been born a clever boy/girl and had the privilege of receivin' a fair share of education, the intellectual side of buddhist practice ain't that hard to get.....but to get this terribly mundane yet wonderful "it", we have to work on our realisation again and again and again.

I spent years trying to get my head around ever-expanding esoteric concepts....nowadays I just revisit the basics of my day-to-day life, which are so easy to understand, yet so hard to realise!

Gassho,

Hans

[Urug]

Buenos Dias Beloved Jundo,

Any good thing ... like chocolate ice cream ... is not so tasty or lovely if you eat it for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

I agree. And while this applies to non-thinking, for me it applies to thinking even more. For me it seems that I think (or at least used to ) nearly 24/7.

Untill I started having brief moments of non-thinking, I never realized how incessantly my brain produced continous chatter. I used to feel that I thought. That I used my intellect for solving problems doing day to day chores. Now I realize how little of my thinking is actually functional. The vast majority of it is just habitual ramblings/fretting/fanticising (am I sharing too much?). What I see now is that there is a "I" behind the thoughts. A silent witness that is aware of my thoughts. I feel that this is more "I" than all the mind noise that my brain generates.

I feel that our brain and the ability to think and problem solve did evolve to support our survival, and I do not wish to stop thinking permantly. However, I feel that much of the suffering of humankind is brought about by our identification with thouoght and our lost ability to reside in non-thinking when there is no problem to confront. It is as if we have become addicted to thinking and can not stop even when we want to.

Or maybe not? It's just a thought. :wink:

Peace...joy...presence...presents...

Gassho,

Urug 8)

[Urug]

Beloved Brothers & Sisters,

Be the weekend.

I go to be one with the river and woods.

"Unify your attention. Do not listen with your ears but with your mind; do not listen with your mind but with your essence. The ears can't do more than to listen, the mind cannot do more than to recognize. As for the essence, it is a void completely unengaged. The Way gathers only in the void. " ~ Confucius

I am never lost because I don't know where I'm going...

Namaste...

Urug 8)

[Jundo]

Hi again,

I also wanted to mention this comment from early in the thread ...

But then I remember Jundo's words that "everything is perfectly what it is", and I wonder what I should be doing do in terms of spiritual practice, or if it really matters. If everything is as it is, then what more can I add to reality by trying harder or doing more?

Realizing that "everything is just what it is" (shrug of discouragement, nothing can be done, oh well life ) is very very different from "everything is just what it is" (beautiful, wonderful, crazy-happy-sad life!!). The difference is our Goalless, "Just Sitting is Already Enlightenement Itself" Practice.

You must Practice to realize that "everything is just what it is" is actually "everything is just what it is".

Before you Practice, you are just an imperfect being. After you Practice, you are just an imperfect being. And that is all the difference in the world!

Gassho, Jundo

PS- I think I have the seed for a couple of talks on the blog here.

[Ryumon]

I just came across this book review:

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php? ... icle/3760/

The call-out quotes are very fitting to this discussion:

“If we were always processing sensation, we’d have no time for anything interesting”

“Frith argues that what we see is not the world as it truly is, but an illusion”

“If every action were driven by conscious agency, we’d be constantly overwhelmed”



Kirk

[Urug]

Beloved others,

The river and the woods are alive. Rapids and waterfalls, wind and spray, trees and paths, beauty and wonder...what a remarkable beautiful planet we live on. The beauty of the natural world almost always brings me peace and sense of presence and interconnectedness of life.

When I was coming home from the river I remembered one of my favorite quotes by Wei Wu Wei and wanted to share it:

"A myriad bubbles were floating on the surface of a stream.
'What are you?' I cried to them as they drifted by.
'I am a bubble, of course' nearly a myriad bubbles answered,
and there was surprise and indignation in their voices as they passed.
But, here and there, a lonely bubble answered,
'We are this stream', and there was neither surprise nor indignation in their voices, but just a quiet certitude."

Getting out in nature helps my mind to slow down and for me to be here now. It seems to me still that our natural state is one of being and presence and that our thinking mind is a tool, a useful tool, but one that has stopped being a servant to us and has become our master. Thinking is reliving the past or projecting a future.

Buddha said:

"Do not pursue the past.
Do not lose yourself in the future.
The past no longer is.
The future has not yet come.
Looking deeply at life as it is
in the very here and now,
the practitioner dwells
in stability and freedom."

For me sitting is here and now, walking is here and now, showering is here and now, going up my stairs is here and now...I feel that here and now is my true home and that thinking is where i go for practical matters that are transient.

A beautiful other wrote a beautiful poem:

"Quiet friend who has come so far,
feel how your breathing makes more space around you.
Let your darkness be a bell tower
and you the bell. As you ring,

what batters you becomes your strength.
Move back and forth into the change.
What is it like, such intensity of pain?
If the drink is bitter, turn yourself into wine.

In this uncontainable night,
be the mystery at the crossroads of your senses,
the meaning discovered there.

And if the world has ceased to hear you,
say to the silent earth: I flow.
To the rushing water, speak: I am."

Namaste...Love...Peace...Gassho...

Urug

[Jundo]

Dear Uruq,

Thank you for those words. Yes, I think that Zen writers and mystics have a particular affinity for nature, as our moments being with the rivers, waterfalls, trees and stones remind us of who we are ... and who we ARE.

I too have been doing some hiking this week ... the mosquito bites and the knee scrapes and the aching muscles (the ones not used in my day-to-day life) remind me of other things too:

Whose itch is this? It is the universe that is itching.

Time passes and knees are impermanent. The mountain and my skinned knees are one without friction, two with great friction.

Foolish middle-aged fat men on mountains are foolish middle-aged fat men on mountains.

... much Wisdom gained.


Namaste...Love...Peace...Gassho... , A Middle-Aged Fat Man