Zazen Talk by Ryushin sensei

[disastermouse]

Re: Zazen Talk by Ryushin sensei

Hello,

just two novice cent-thoughts regarding the underlying question of "when is Shikantaza truly Shikantaza".

In my limited understanding, not only are there different flavours of Shikantaza being taught, but depending on the teacher what is being taught as Shikantaza at a particular time might be more closely associated with Shamatha, and sometimes with Vipashyana at another time. Now I don't want to open another can of worms here to dissect these broad standard divisions within certain currents of Buddhist meditation, but I would just like to point to the fact that although people always use this very comprehensive term Shikantaza, the setting and the people who are being taught must be taken into account. Some teachers might see the need to underline the concentration aspect a bit more (especially at the beginning of one's practise), others will stress the spacious insight aspect. It all depends on the time, place and person receiving the teachings as well as the teacher.

Gassho,

Hans

Hans,

Allow me to respectfully disagree (gassho). In the White Plum lineage, Shikantaza is taught much as it is taught here - the difference being that one doesn't engage in it until after koan practice is finished (usually). I remember when my ex-girlfriend asked me how I meditated (she was a White Plum student), and when I described my practice, she said, "So you do Shikantaza?" There was an air of disapproval in her question, as she thought I was practicing Shikantaza prematurely. In a way, White Plum places Shikantaza on an even higher pedestal than do we here at Treeleaf...beginning students are almost in awe of it, as one only practices it after he or she is very advanced.

If we stretch the term 'Shikantaza' to cover any sort of practice, we dilute the meaning of the word, IMHO. Some limited concentration may in fact be taught in a school where the emphasis is Shikantaza - especially to beginners, and it may be called 'Shikantaza' - however, the talks and general push is away from concentration practice, away from the identification with an observer, and away from methods with foci or goals. In Hagen's Sangha, breath-counting is dropped as soon as possible - in our Sangha, I'm not sure it's taught at all. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Whether or not we agree on semantics, do you not agree that what is taught here in Treeleaf Sangha is very much different than what is discussed in the talk in the original post?

Once again, respectfully,

Chet

[Hans]

Re: Zazen Talk by Ryushin sensei

Hello Chet,

believe it or not, but I fully agree with your last post. IMHO Jundo and Taigu have a very specific view regarding Shikantaza, a view I am happy to embrace as my own daily practise. However to me at least the fact is that the term Shikantaza is being interpreted in a slightly different way depending on the teacher. My bottom line is that Jundo and Taigu repeatedly explain their take on Shikantaza, which is what I practise I believe

The bottom line to me at this moment is
a) one should be aware of what one's own Sangha/lineage means by the term and practise
b) one should be aware that there are related approaches possibly even going by the same name that might help or confuse one's own practise.

My original posting was just a quick-fire thought that most people do indeed involuntarily pass through a period where they are more working on trying to keep up some level of concentration, even if their aim is Shikantaza as we understand it in the long run.


Gassho and all the best,

Hans

[Jundo]

Re: Zazen Talk by Ryushin sensei

Hi,

Yes, let me make this simple (maybe too simple).

There are many flavors of meditation, and Zazen, seeking calm, centering or some intensity of focus, or special mental states or experiences, or cultivating insight. That is fine.

And sometimes, some teacher will call a flavor of Zazen as "Shikantaza" even though the flavor seems to be about calming, centering or attaining some intensity of focus, or even attaining special mental states or experiences or insights. That is fine too. No one chef has the exclusive recipe for tomato soup, and one can call anything by any name ya want!

However, I believe that real "Shikantaza" is the Calming beyond calm or chaos, the Centering that includes everything and all, the seeking of that which cannot be sought and is found by "to the marrow" not looking or needing to look ... like a dog giving up the hunt for its own tail that makes that tail seem farther and farther away ...




... the Clean which includes clean and dirty (yet we scrub scrub scrub nonetheless), the most miraculous and wondrous of "special states" right here all along, in both the mind bending and most "ordinary".

And while we seek no special insights from this ... world changing insights arise.

Among all forms of "meditation" ... this radical stopping and stilling dancing amid and as the constant change/moving of all life and the self's selfish games ... is perhaps the most subtle and sublime of all practices.

Now, while I do not practice Shikantaza as merely counting or following the breath, I did recommend that just today to someone whose seems in a real stormy state of mind, who might need it for a time ...

I'm exhausted and burnt out, and wasted a lot of time now (before the summer even started) not recovering. I am only now starting to understand why my mind is so overactive that I am restless, anxious, can't follow through on projects (my final papers from spring semester are *still* not done!), can't sit still

Well, at least you have located the most immediate source of the chaos ... right between your eyes. Plus, yes, cutting back on over-stimulation from media and other outside sources is helpful (one reason that Zen adepts appreciate time in empty shacks in the deep mountains ... with just the sound of the river). Usually, we sit with "what is" and all the chaos ... finding the Quiet and Stillness which sweeps in both motion and stillness, quiet and noise. However, sometimes it can be overwhelming for any of us ... and a quiet, non-stimulating setting helps.

Also, although we usually sit with "just what is", you sound like a perfect candidate for a time of breath counting in your Zazen ... until you can calm the mental storms down a bit. Just focus on the breath at the point where it enters the nostrils ... and count from 1 to 10 each time you reach the top of a breath. Focus only on that, letting all other extraneous thoughts go or just float along. Do this practice until you feel settled and can return to "just sitting".

viewtopic.php?p=57858#p57858

Gassho, J

[Nindo]

Re: Zazen Talk by Ryushin sensei

There was an air of disapproval in her question, as she thought I was practicing Shikantaza prematurely. In a way, White Plum places Shikantaza on an even higher pedestal than do we here at Treeleaf...beginning students are almost in awe of it, as one only practices it after he or she is very advanced.

Just for the record, I was "allowed" by a White Plum teacher to sit shikantaza in sesshin without entering into Koan study, and they do have students at Zen Mountain Monastery who do not start on koan study for various reasons but go from following the breath to shikantaza. But I agree there is some (mis-)understanding among students as you describe it.