Zazen Talk by Ryushin sensei

[Seiryu]

Hi,
I found this talk by Ryushin sensei, one of the heir of Daido Roshi, he was giving beginning instruction, but it wasn't the instruction that made me want to share this, it was the explanation about completely being one with your experience that I liked...anyway let me hear your thoughts

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Gassho


Seiryu

[Risho]

Re: Zazen Talk by Ryushin sensei

Thanks for posting this! I listen to the zmm's (Zen Mountain Monastery's) podcasts regularly. good stuff

[Dokan]

Re: Zazen Talk by Ryushin sensei

Thanks for posting this! I listen to the zmm's (Zen Mountain Monastery's) podcasts regularly. good stuff

Ditto...was interesting to see him actually after listening to so many talks. He's much more animated than I envisioned. Was a good talk...thanks for the post!

Gassho,

Shawn

[Onshin]

Re: Zazen Talk by Ryushin sensei

Thanks for sharing this Seiryu, I found his style quite engaging.

Gassho

[Jundo]

Re: Zazen Talk by Ryushin sensei

Thank you for the link, Seiryu.

When I listened, I had the feeling that Ryushin is one of those folks combining a bit of psycho-analysis into his description of Zen practice and, sure enough, he was a psychiatrist before becoming a Zen priest. But all in all, a lovely description of Zen practice.

I noticed that he tended to put bit more emphasis on breath practice than we encourage around here, but I find that very common in the mountain and rivers order. All Zazen has some point of focus, but I encourage that point to be more a place of spaciousness.

Gassho, Jundo

[natezenmaster]

Re: Zazen Talk by Ryushin sensei

Jundo,

So you recommend no-thought more so than focus on the breath or counting breaths or similar?

Thanks...

_/_ Nate

[Hoyu]

Re: Zazen Talk by Ryushin sensei

I listen to the zmm's (Zen Mountain Monastery's) podcasts regularly. good stuff

I'll have to download some and check it out!

Gassho,
John

[Jundo]

Re: Zazen Talk by Ryushin sensei

Jundo,

So you recommend no-thought more so than focus on the breath or counting breaths or similar?

Thanks...

_/_ Nate

Hi Nate,

The phrase "no thought" is very misleading in our way, because folks get the impression that they are to kill all thinking.

I wrote about the focus of Zazen here ...

There are many small variations in Shikantaza, teacher to teacher. One has to place and focus (and simultaneously not place/focus) the mind somewhere!

So, for example, Uchiyama Roshi was a "bring your attention back to the posture" guy. Nishijima Roshi is a "focus on keeping the spine straight" fellow, and there are others who emphasize focusing on the breath or the Hara (also called the "Tanden", the traditional "center of gravity" of the body, and a center of Qi energy in traditional Chinese medicine) ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dantian

Some recommend following the breath for a lifetime, others for just a time.

All are forms of Shikantaza ... so long as the objectless nature of sitting is maintained even if focused on an object.

In fact, all forms of Shikantaza have an "object of meditation", a place to focus or place the mind to build concentration and quiet the thoughts (hopefully to soften the border and pass through "object" and "subject"), while dropping all effort to attain and releasing all judgments. At Treeleaf, I teach counting the breaths, or observing the breath, merely as a way to settle the mind for beginners or to settle down on particularly cloudy, stormy days. As our central "objectless" object of meditation, I recommend open, spacious sitting centered on everything and nothing at all ... sitting with open, spacious awareness ... sitting with the whole world but without being lost in trains of thought (which I also sometimes describe as having the mind focused on "no place and everyplace at once"). That open stillness is our "object of concentration". My reason for that is simply that I believe it makes it a bit easier to take this practice off the Zafu and out into the world.

If you need a place to feel you are "placing the mind", I recommend on the top of the palm in the left hand while in the Mudra (another traditional place for the focus in Shikantaza). Yet, keep that "spacious, unobstructed, everywhere and no one place" emphasis.

If you have not read it before (or even if you have), Uchiyama has one of the most elegant "diagrams" of Shikantaza's way in his book "Openning the Hand of Thought". Lovely.

Please go here, search the word "line", find page 52, entitled "Waking Up To Life", and read to page 60 (about the diagram drawing on page 54) ... notice especially the part where he says "Zazen is not being glued to line ZZ'" (what I might call "returning to the clear, open, blue sky 10,00 times and 10,000 times again")

http://books.google.com/books?id=fOU_1v ... ne&f=false

Whether you focus on the posture, the breath, the top of the left hand, the Hara, or the sensation of clear, open blue sky (with clouds drifting out) that I recommend ... one should eventually sometimes attain to an open, unobstructed, holding everything without discrimination or division feeling ... What Uchiyama calls "line ZZ" in his essay, and what I call clear open sky.

However, I say "sometimes" (and Uchiyama says "don't stay glued to ZZ") because the whole thing is the trip, reject nothing ... not the thoughts and emotions that drag you away from ZZ", not the clouds which sometimes block the clear blue sky. It is all life, all perfectly what it is. Sometimes it will be "bare awareness", sometimes awareness of this or that. Drop all judgments, drop all goals and need to get someplace else or to be any other way.

Yet, nonetheless, return again and again to ZZ, to the clear blue sky (allowing the thoughts and emotion clouds to drift away). If you notice you are engaged in trains of thought, release them, drop them, and return to ZZ. Repeat endlessly.

All that, at once, is "Shikantaza".

In Shikantaza practice as encouraged around here, we teach counting the breaths, or observing the breath, merely as a way to settle the mind for beginners. (After a few weeks or months, the training wheels come off, and we begin open, spacious sitting centered on everything and nothing at all.) On the other hand as mentioned, different teachers, even within the Soto school, will teach somewhat different perspectives on this, and observing the breath can even be a lifetime practice for some!

However, generally, we do not do anything with the breath, except to allow it to find its own, natural , easy rhythm. Master Dogen (the founder of the Soto lineage in Japan) did not really say very much about breathing. In fact, I often think that he could have said more (breathing is so important in the martial arts, for example). But, Dogen did not really seem to say much more than "know that long breaths are long, short breaths are short ... and that they are neither long nor short'. And breathe from the tanden [the physical center of gravity located in the abdomen three finger widths below and two finger widths behind the navel], ... in other words, breathe deeply ... but know that they come and go no where.

It is, after all, goalless "just sitting".

We usually just let the breath settle into a natural rhythm. I find that 2 or 3 breaths per minute is a sign of a very balanced Zazen. Let it come and go so naturally that you forget you are breathing.

I gave a "sit-a-long" talk on this as part of our "Zazen for Beginners" series, and I hope that you will have a look at that (and the whole series ... with Taigu too) when you have a chance ...:

viewtopic.php?p=41798#p41798

Gassho, J

[natezenmaster]

Re: Zazen Talk by Ryushin sensei

Jundo sensei,

Thanks for the post and repost. I practice as you instruct though if I get taken away by a train of delicious thoughts (which is not an uncommon occurrence) then I tend to use the breath to resettle and then dissipate away.. or perhaps expand.. from awareness of breath to just awareness.. so to speak..

I also much enjoy the Opening the Hand of Thought Book.

Thanks again... _/_ Nate

[Amelia]

Re: Zazen Talk by Ryushin sensei

I wish I could keep up on more of these lectures, and even sit-a-longs that are being posted-- I share a room and there are very often a lot of things going on and I can't add a lecture to the mix-- only at certain times of the day.

[disastermouse]

Re: Zazen Talk by Ryushin sensei

Wow, still pretty psychological - still pretty goal-oriented. Doubtless there are benefits to training the mind to stay on one thing, but what about addressing the ego that thinks it chooses a focus point?

Have I misunderstood the talk, or is what he describes still a far cry from Shikantaza? I'm reminded of part of The Unfettered Mind:

If one puts his mind in the action of his opponent's body, his mind will be taken by the action of his opponent's body.

If he puts his mind in his opponent's sword, his mind will be taken by that sword.

If he puts his mind in thoughts of his opponent's intention to strike him, his mind will be taken by thoughts of his opponent's intention to strike him.

If he puts his mind in his own sword, his mind will be taken by his own sword.

If he puts his mind in his own intention of not being struck, his mind will be taken by his intention of not being struck.

If he puts his mind in the other man's stance, his mind will be taken by the other man's stance.

What this means is that there is no place to put the mind.

I first heard this passage in a Steve Hagen talk. He says that after saying there is no place to put the mind, students almost invariably reply, "Oh right, no place to put the mind." Then they ask some less obvious version of, "Ok, so when I sit zazen, where do I place the mind?"


Gassho,

Chet

[Jundo]

Re: Zazen Talk by Ryushin sensei

Wow, still pretty psychological - still pretty goal-oriented. Doubtless there are benefits to training the mind to stay on one thing, but what about addressing the ego that thinks it chooses a focus point?

Have I misunderstood the talk, or is what he describes still a far cry from Shikantaza? I'm reminded of part of The Unfettered Mind:

If one puts his mind in the action of his opponent's body, his mind will be taken by the action of his opponent's body.

If he puts his mind in his opponent's sword, his mind will be taken by that sword.

If he puts his mind in thoughts of his opponent's intention to strike him, his mind will be taken by thoughts of his opponent's intention to strike him.

If he puts his mind in his own sword, his mind will be taken by his own sword.

If he puts his mind in his own intention of not being struck, his mind will be taken by his intention of not being struck.

If he puts his mind in the other man's stance, his mind will be taken by the other man's stance.

What this means is that there is no place to put the mind.

I first heard this passage in a Steve Hagen talk. He says that after saying there is no place to put the mind, students almost invariably reply, "Oh right, no place to put the mind." Then they ask some less obvious version of, "Ok, so when I sit zazen, where do I place the mind?"


Gassho,

Chet

Lovely Chet. Your (non-goal oriented, nothing to aim at) bowling is still hot.

Gassho, J

[Dokan]

Re: Zazen Talk by Ryushin sensei

Have I misunderstood the talk, or is what he describes still a far cry from Shikantaza?

I have followed MRO for some time now and actually will practice there in September. I discussed their 'style' with Jundo in the past and I think the key take away with this lineage is keeping in mind they are a hybrid Rinzai/Soto school. So each teacher at MRO (and some that have moved on to other things) seem to have a bit of a different weighing on which area they are more focused on. Both Ryushin & Shugen Senseis, I personally find, are more introspection focused than Daido Roshi was. They extol shikantaza, however their talks are primarily koan focused which I think is the reason for this type of discourses.

For me, while I enjoy reading koans and hearing discourses on them, my practice is shikantaza and choose not to mix it as such. I think Shobo Genzo sums up my thinking nicely:

"...without devoting yourself to one thing, you cannot penetrate the one wisdom."

Gassho,

Shawn

[AlanLa]

Re: Zazen Talk by Ryushin sensei

That 4.6 seconds that he talks about if fairly accu-

What? Huh? Oh yeah...

-rate. Bt the last thing my mon-

Umm... uhh... right, got it...

-key mind needs is a stop watch.

[Hans]

Re: Zazen Talk by Ryushin sensei

Hello,

just two novice cent-thoughts regarding the underlying question of "when is Shikantaza truly Shikantaza".

In my limited understanding, not only are there different flavours of Shikantaza being taught, but depending on the teacher what is being taught as Shikantaza at a particular time might be more closely associated with Shamatha, and sometimes with Vipashyana at another time. Now I don't want to open another can of worms here to dissect these broad standard divisions within certain currents of Buddhist meditation, but I would just like to point to the fact that although people always use this very comprehensive term Shikantaza, the setting and the people who are being taught must be taken into account. Some teachers might see the need to underline the concentration aspect a bit more (especially at the beginning of one's practise), others will stress the spacious insight aspect. It all depends on the time, place and person receiving the teachings as well as the teacher.

Gassho,

Hans