ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

[Jundo]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

There are many places to go in this argument, but the one that kills the attempt to give them parity is this: Zen insights are not limited to certain states of mind or insight, but also to so-called 'mundane' states of mind. Shikantaza does not just express the perfect teachings of non-self exemplified in the Diamond Sutra, but ALSO the perfection of mundane mind states. The many hours spent sitting zazen where nothing 'special' seems to happen are ALSO an expression of Buddha's perfect Dharma. It is a rather human tendency to focus on the highs and lows of life - the stark contrasts - and indeed, in my humble opinion, these can be very critical opportunities to 'wake up'. But what about the long slogs through flat, seemingly uninteresting landscapes? What does the drug experience (almost always in heightened contrast) teach about the perfect reflection of Dharma that is doing your taxes, changing your baby's diaper, or kissing your wife? I believe it was Barry Magid who proposed this scenario in 'Ending the Pursuit of Happiness': Imagine that your practice period today was as good or bad as it would ever be. Imagine that every practice period you had from this day on was exactly like today's with no hope of ever 'improving'. Could you continue to sit zazen in light of such an admittedly unlikely scenario? Could you both be at peace and also not squelch the disappointment that would surely well up within you? If so, I believe that would describe the mindset exemplified in Shikantaza. If your approach becomes one such as this, you have defeated the poisons of ego without going to war with ego. This is an expression of the perfect Dharma, and kensho or the peak experiences of hallucinogens are quite beside the point. Nice if they happen. but irrelevant to the true expression of the Dharma.

What can the drug experience, trading as it does in very extreme states of mind, teach you about the perfection of the mundane?

Geez, feels like Bubba's bowling is hot today! Another strike! 8)

This is really something coming from a fellow who once described Shikantaza as nothing but a form of (if I recall) "stiff upper lip stoicism". :wink:

Yes, perhaps (if I may sound like a Zen fortune cookie for a moment) ... Zazen is the state that is just each and all states, both the seemingly magical and the purely mundane ... and thus somehow stateless for being all states ... and somehow Sacred & Magic in a way that sweeps in all silly human judgments of "magical v. mundane" ... and which is just you and me too ...

Something like that. Now THAT's EYE OPENING! :shock:

Gassho, J

[Keishin]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

I for one have sat with the Venerable Brad Warner and I can tell y'all that with my very own eyes I have seen Brad get high (well 'higher') on kapok and buckwheat hulls while sitting zazen on the floor.
Yup.
Everytime.

No, take that back, forget the buckwheat hulls--his zafu as well as his zabuton are kapok--no, I have to amend my statement to: Brad does zazen while high on kapok exclusively--at least while he was sitting at the Hill Street Center.
I don't know 'bout now.

And that's the trute.

[Eika]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

This thread is great. Thank you, everyone for posting, especially Chet. You write some really wonderful descriptions of shikantaza.

One issue, Chet: a real musician, IMHO, does not practice their scales for any future performance. They practice for the deepening relationship with the music that occurs in the never-ending NOW . . . an exploration of music itself . . . done with complete attention and sincerity. Still not the same as shikantaza, but not quite as pragmatic as was suggested. Also, there is a great tradition of Zen and the arts whereby they work non-separately. Just saying.

Again, awesome thread.

Gassho,
Eika

[Ryumon]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

Slightly off-topic, but musicians practice scales to maintain dexterity, not as any exploration of music. They do it because they know they have to, not because they want to, in most cases. I was watching an interview the other day with pianist András Schiff, who said he hates practicing scales, so instead he plays an hour of Bach every morning. That, to me, is more about an exploration of music.

[disastermouse]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

I for one have sat with the Venerable Brad Warner and I can tell y'all that with my very own eyes I have seen Brad get high (well 'higher') on kapok and buckwheat hulls while sitting zazen on the floor.
Yup.
Everytime.

No, take that back, forget the buckwheat hulls--his zafu as well as his zabuton are kapok--no, I have to amend my statement to: Brad does zazen while high on kapok exclusively--at least while he was sitting at the Hill Street Center.
I don't know 'bout now.

And that's the trute.

I only sat with him twice. Hardly enough to weigh in except to say that he's an incredibly nice guy on first impression. But as to his writing and his honesty in just presenting what he feels is true without regard for personal consequences...I think we've all seen evidence of that.

Chet

[Eika]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

Slightly off-topic, but musicians practice scales to maintain dexterity, not as any exploration of music. They do it because they know they have to, not because they want to, in most cases. I was watching an interview the other day with pianist András Schiff, who said he hates practicing scales, so instead he plays an hour of Bach every morning. That, to me, is more about an exploration of music.

Au contraire. I spoke too broadly and didn't qualify my perspective. Not the jazz musician. Scales are, along with harmony and rhythms, an inexhaustible source, indeed THE source of music itself for the improvisor. If by scales, you mean M2, M2, m2, M2, M2, M2, m2 for a major scale for example, then I might agree, but that's an extremely narrow view of something like a scale. What about 3rds, or 4ths? Or alternating ascending 2nds and descending 7ths? Coltrane, Shorter, Tyner, et al practice these "basic" items over and over and over, not solely during their "developmental" years, but throughout. Schiff is not an improvisor (at least not on the structural level--all interpretations are on some level improvisatory). Practicing scales to maintain dexterity is like doing kinhin to stretch your legs. Yes, it is a side effect, but not the point. So, again, my perspective was that of a improvising jazz guy, not a classical repertoire-oriented musician. Each tradition has it's own practice needs, I realize. Also, I know a great number of orchestral classical musicians who do practice scales in a deeper way than you suggest. This is especially true for instruments like clarinet, flute, and trumpet where the tone itself is one of the primary expressive dimensions.

Peace,
Eika

[Taigu]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

Interesting...Two schools...The gradual, scales practice, and the instant, just music.
Well, well, well. Both are right.
Jazz musicians will often play endlessly along with the record. A jazz musician must know his musical geography better than any other musician, the great apparent freedom is the byproduct of real hard work. So scales again and again.
So they travel effortlessly through keys...In a way, at a certain level classical musicians don't need scales anymore, Bach will do the job, playing this and that. They will play scales again if they stop practising for a while and have to come back to a full shape ( very true with the fiddle, as I witnessed my ex wife and her friends doing it many times).

One more thing, if you can play a scale musically, then you will be able to make stone sing.
Long notes are great too, tone practice. On wind or string instrument. You would be amazed of how incredibly complex is an instrument like the piano, if you learn to play it not as a mere percussion but with the descending movement that doesn't strike and hit the keyboard, just like Arrau. Listen to the grace of a single note propperly played. Pure wonder.

I would add that scales make you listen to this space between notes: silence. This is the most important part of any score. The white stuff...

A visual heart sutra feast :wink:

gassho

Taigu

[Rev R]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

I think I'm going to roll out of this one. The toughest thing about playing devil's advocate here is arguing for or against views that there are no particular attachments to.

[Jundo]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

Slightly off-topic, but musicians practice scales to maintain dexterity, not as any exploration of music. They do it because they know they have to, not because they want to, in most cases. I was watching an interview the other day with pianist András Schiff, who said he hates practicing scales, so instead he plays an hour of Bach every morning. That, to me, is more about an exploration of music.

Ah, not if one plays scales as Shikantaza!

Then, one plays each note by note of the scales as each an unending symphony sounding all time and space!

Each note by note, scale by scale is whole and complete, nothing more to attain.

And keep at that hard, tedious slog up the musical mountain day by day, and you may actually get better ... able to play like Bach, Beethoven, Brubeck and Buddha at their peak.

Of course ... I have a tin ear for the piano myself. But a good eye for Shikantaza! 8)

Gassho, J

[Ankai]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

Never heard of someone who died of zazen.
Known a lot of people killed by drugs.
I defer to the precepts.

[disastermouse]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

Never heard of someone who died of zazen.
Known a lot of people killed by drugs.
I defer to the precepts.

I'm pretty sure some people have died in Japanese monasteries, whether from blood clots, heat, chill, sleep deprivation, or beatings. But I take your point.

Chet

[Amelia]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

I have fallen way behind on this discussion, but would like to say thanks for the added insight in a couple of responses to my post WAY up there. I may get through the rest of the thread later.

[BrianW]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

Hello all,

I don’t how many of you have seen the movie “Enter the Void.” A word of warning it does contain segments that are pornographic and has graphic violence. Before making the movie the director traveled to South America to experience ayahuasca first hand…it’s sort of the hot hallucinogen these days. There are even tours you can make that include a “drug” trip. ayahuasca is filled with DMT and from all accounts probably one of the most intense drug experiences you can have. Anyway, shot in Tokyo the movie, in parts, has exquisite colors….I’ve never seen quite anything like it. Even the title sequence is ground breaking. But I did find myself fast forwarding through some of the scenes …just too intense for my liking.

Although the movie is filled with references from the Tibetan Book of the Dead, it revolves around a rather weak concept – what would it be like for someone to die who is under the influence of all these psychoactive drugs? Thus, not very profound . Interesting visually and that’s about it.

Every other year I attend a conference in Tucson Arizona on the “Scientific Study of Consciousness.” Invariably there are people presenting on psychedelic drugs. Research on ayahuasca is fascinating, but one of the issues that always comes up is that of neurotoxicity. Not to mention the possibility of developing post-hallucinogenic perceptual disorder, one symptom of which are flashbacks. Many of the personal accounts I’ve heard of people taking Ayahuasca seem that it can be a really terrifying experience. There is a research institute studying hallucinogens, including ayahuasca, in clinical use. Some “fringe” researchers claiming spiritual benefits, primarily for those with chronic illnesses facing death. Fascinating read…not that I would encourage any of my friends or family to sign up for trials, but research is open ended and who knows? http://www.heffter.org/

Gassho,
BrianW/ Jisen