ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

[Dosho]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

A number of people on my Facebook page took me to task for what they saw as a violation of "Right Speech." Listen. Right Speech isn't about being meek and mild and only telling people what they want to hear. Right Speech is saying what needs saying when it needs saying. Any speech that supports the use of drugs as a means to really get to know yourself is bullshit. Speech that softens the real hit some people need to get that message is useless

To be fair, I don't think Brad is using this section to defend the particular post I quoted, just the general line of counterargument he offered which was perfectly valid. However, posting about what annoys you, using an expletive, and calling anyone a loser is hardly "...saying what needs saying...". More like, "Some things are better left unsaid."

But, it's his Facebook page and his right to express himself of course. I was just saying I thought his offering a counterpoint to someone's argument was weakened by referring to that person as a "loser". Kind of ranks up there with "I know you are but what am I?"

Gassho,
Dosho

[Rich]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

For some of us with well-entrenched coping mechanisms, the only way to get on the path is to have the rug pulled out from under us – completely – one way to do this is with lsd – true, you can just avoid reocurrence of that “bad trip”, but for many of us, there's no going back to the old ways – such a graphic tasting of the truth is not easily forgotten, or covered over – like most of life's more valuable lessons, it is forced upon you when there is “no way out”

and the psychedelic experience should not be confused with your garden-variety of chemicals, the ones we use to get us through the day:alcohol,tv, paxil, valium, posting on this forum, etc. -- these serve to reinforce the coping mechanisms, not break them down

Not to deny the need for a practice, remembering that truth is not a static thing, but is to be discovered in each moment

I've been thinking about this topic and I feel based on my experience what I have to share may be helpful. While it is true that LSD can alter your consciousness and maybe strip away what you identified as your self, I don't believe it has anything to do with the dharma and your true self. I would strongly discourage anyone from using any kind of drugs - they are just too dangerous and are poisonous. We have been given a path that requires effort to perceive what is. Depending on drugs for a 'spiritual' state of mind is the worst delusion.

Roky, maybe LSD shocked you 'to get on the path' but maybe you would have gotten on the path anyway.

[Ryumon]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

If it wasn't for experiences during and immediately after an LSD trip in '96, I may not be here today. That was the moment I decided to take this Zen thing more seriously. It seems to me that it was more a case of simply being in the right place at the right time rather than any benefit of the drug use. That morning always lurks in the back of my mind.

I'm late to this thread, but the above comment certainly resonates with me. In my case, it was the 70s, and the glimpses I had of other states were part of what led me on this path.

I think it should be noted, though, exactly which words Brad used:

drug abuse as a way to gain spiritual insight

"Drug abuse" is not the same as "drug use." Now, perhaps he is saying that any drug use is abuse, but I'm not sure if that's what he means. I've never known anyone to "abuse" drugs such as psychedelics in order to gain spiritual insight. In fact, back in the day, I never knew anyone who used psychedelics at all for that reason. There were people writing about it - Leary, even Castaneda, who is probably the worst example of inciting drug use for spiritual uses (also, he was a fraud) - but I don't know how widespread such usage was then, or is now.

[Ankai]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

How about this: the guy who takes the helicopter to the top of the mountain will always NEED the helicopter to get there. The person who climbs on his own doesn't even need the mountain any more, much less a quick means to the top.

[Hoyu]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

How about this: the guy who takes the helicopter to the top of the mountain will always NEED the helicopter to get there. The person who climbs on his own doesn't even need the mountain any more, much less a quick means to the top.

Ah, the transcendence attained through true practice; very well put Ankai!

Gassho,
John

[disastermouse]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

Hi,

I think Bro. Brad Warner has a pretty dandy post on Zazen and psychedelic drugs over at his blog today ...

“You can’t deny it’s exactly the same view,” one guy said. But, in fact, I would unequivocally deny that it’s the same view. It’s not. Not at all.
.

http://hardcorezen.blogspot.com/2011/07 ... drugs.html

... although beware of the comments section. I think ya have to be on 'shrooms or something to figure out parts of that! 8)

Gassho, Jundo

Being a guy who both experimented with psychedelics and also had what I feel to be an authentic experience of no-self, I would have to wholeheartedly agree with this. The two 'views' are most definitely not the same. They can't even be compared. Just my humble opinion - acknowledging that I may be the only one who views my experience as authentic.

Psychedelics may provide a provisional experience of non-being, but it isn't the unmasking that a true experience of 'waking up' is. It's just a very deceptively muddled mask. To me, the drug experience is like jamming all sensory data into a very intense mush, into which the individual self disappears. The authentic 'waking up' experience is crisp, sharp as a razor, while also empty, vast, and completely un-confusing. There is no feeling of disembodiment or being removed from the situation. It is both empty, uncluttered and yet powerfully intimate. It is self-not-self. This is profoundly untrue of the drug experience.

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

Drugs=delusion and if you do them and think they don't, consider why. I'll give you a hint.... It's in the equation :wink:

John,

I agree and know the type of drugs to which you are referring, but I would just qualify that statement with "unprescribed".

Gassho,
Dosho

Clearly Brad wasn't talking about medicine, but it is helpful to make sure that rejecting drug use does not devolve into a demonization of prescription medications for particular illnesses. Let's not go into an "ADHD doesn't exist, ZOMG we're drugging our kidz into zombiez!!!11" conversation. Thanks for the reminder, Dosho.

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

I would also like to point out a similarity in both these experiences - both can leave you with the very profound delusion that you are big 'E' enlightened. The drug user is unlikely to seek a teacher and receive correction to that delusion. From experience, I can say that although there may be resistance, he or she who has the authentic experience seems much more likely to place him or herself in a place where such delusion can be stripped away, painful though it may be. Why? The authentic experience leaves you feeling almost embarrassingly stupid for never having realized what was in front of you. However, truth needs no defense - and there lingers a remembrance of the fact that truth requires letting go, not hanging on. None of this is in the drug experience. IMHO.

Chet

[Rev R]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

It appears that the argument against drugs as a tool of the spiritual seeker hinges on the validity of the experience and a perceived primacy of shikantaza. Let's leave drugs behind for a moment. What about other means: drumming, chanting, ritual prayer, koan penetration? What about spontaneous awakenings- those experiences brought on by a turning phrase or some seemingly mundane event.

Hells, I'm hard pressed to recall a single Zen master of old awakened through ritualized seated meditation. Gautama is close, but he was also recovering from extreme mortification of the body at the time. While I agree that drugs as a shortcut is a bad idea, dogma can be just as damaging.

[Sydney]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

I took moderate amounts of a few psychedelics upwards of two decades ago, and felt that I experienced some minor but important moments of realization. HOWEVER, the gist of it is that 1. all they did was help me look at how I was living my life with a slightly different point of view and 2. I had to sift through a lot of nonsense for those few instants of realization.

Had I devoted an equal amount of time to thoughtful conversation about my life with professors, friends, or my girlfriend over tea, I believe I could have had as much or more of the realization I experienced while high.

Just because moments of realization take place while one is high doesn't imply that being high led to the moments of realization.

Charlie Parker crafted some amazing jazz music while doing astonishing amounts of drugs. But the jazz didn't come from the drugs. It came from Charlie Parker.

[Ankai]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

The whole point, though is to release our attachments, right? How to do that if such a release is dependent upon an attachment to a chemical? In other words, if it's a drug, a drum, whatever... that experience becomes dependent upon something external; something to be BOUGHT. Purchased. That alone shows it's NOT the same thing, and is no "shortcut" or substitute for shikantaza... which requires nothing, literally. One simply can't fill ones' self or one's mind with "something" to achieve "nothing."

[disastermouse]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

It appears that the argument against drugs as a tool of the spiritual seeker hinges on the validity of the experience and a perceived primacy of shikantaza. Let's leave drugs behind for a moment. What about other means: drumming, chanting, ritual prayer, koan penetration? What about spontaneous awakenings- those experiences brought on by a turning phrase or some seemingly mundane event.

Hells, I'm hard pressed to recall a single Zen master of old awakened through ritualized seated meditation. Gautama is close, but he was also recovering from extreme mortification of the body at the time. While I agree that drugs as a shortcut is a bad idea, dogma can be just as damaging.

I would say that an awakening experience RARELY occurs during zazen (although my first experience of this kind did) - shikantaza or otherwise. I would not be surprised if many people reported that an 'awakening moment' came right after getting up from the cushion though. Surely koan penetration works. I would say that koans aren't even verboten in most Soto schools, simply that they aren't a focus of meditation. Soto just 'does koans' differently. Hearing a talk about a koan after shikantaza may very well spur a kensho experience, IMHO.

Drugs can bring about feelings of no-self, but under the influence of psychedelics I have also been thoroughly convinced that I was possessed by a demon, the reincarnation of Jesus Christ, and that I was an alien from space (not all at the same time, LOL). Thoroughly convinced, that is, until I was coming down from the trip or my focus changed to something else.

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

I just want to add something here, kensho is not a goal of shikantaza, IMHO. I've stepped very wrongly (and very publicly, LOL) about this topic due to my own attachment to kensho and have gratefully been corrected.

So even if the drug experience could be considered 'authentic', so what? What about the other 99% of the time when you are not having that experience? It's just as much perfection as kensho. How can you realize that, live that, with the drug experience?

Gassho.

Chet

[Rev R]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

Hey Chet

What about the other 99% of the time when you are not having that experience? It's just as much perfection as kensho.

I agree that kensho is as perfectly as it is as taking a shit (or whatever example you choose to replace that with) and I would raise that we don't have any real need to chase after the peak. If it happens it happens. If not, not.

But what is the measure of a superior method? More directly with an analogy, is the argument "a Stanley hammer is not as good as a Craftsman" or are we arguing that a ball-peen is better than a maul for this job?

(for the record, I'm playing Devil's Advocate since Al Pacino wasn't available)

[disastermouse]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

Hey Chet

What about the other 99% of the time when you are not having that experience? It's just as much perfection as kensho.

I agree that kensho is as perfectly as it is as taking a shit (or whatever example you choose to replace that with) and I would raise that we don't have any real need to chase after the peak. If it happens it happens. If not, not.

But what is the measure of a superior method? More directly with an analogy, is the argument "a Stanley hammer is not as good as a Craftsman" or are we arguing that a ball-peen is better than a maul for this job?

(for the record, I'm playing Devil's Advocate since Al Pacino wasn't available)

I think that understanding shikantaza is very difficult at first. Shikantaza is not a method, and REALLY, there is no goal. Shikantaza is not a kensho-attainment method. I think that a lot of people have a hard time groking that. Ironically, dropping all ideas of attainment, IMHO, makes kensho much more likely, but it doesn't matter since if you are truly practicing shikantaza, you are basically practicing what kensho IS. Kensho is really just a dramatic validation of the principles of shikantaza, but shikantaza is itself the practice of enlightenment. It is radical non-attainment.

IMHO.

Chet