ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

[Jundo]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

Hey Chet

What about the other 99% of the time when you are not having that experience? It's just as much perfection as kensho.

I agree that kensho is as perfectly as it is as taking a shit (or whatever example you choose to replace that with) and I would raise that we don't have any real need to chase after the peak. If it happens it happens. If not, not.

But what is the measure of a superior method? More directly with an analogy, is the argument "a Stanley hammer is not as good as a Craftsman" or are we arguing that a ball-peen is better than a maul for this job?

(for the record, I'm playing Devil's Advocate since Al Pacino wasn't available)

I think that understanding shikantaza is very difficult at first. Shikantaza is not a method, and REALLY, there is no goal. Shikantaza is not a kensho-attainment method. I think that a lot of people have a hard time groking that. Ironically, dropping all ideas of attainment, IMHO, makes kensho much more likely, but it doesn't matter since if you are truly practicing shikantaza, you are basically practicing what kensho IS. Kensho is really just a dramatic validation of the principles of shikantaza, but shikantaza is itself the practice of enlightenment. It is radical non-attainment.

IMHO.

Chet

Hi Chet,

Yes, it is very good to make this clear, especially for folks newer to Zen practice who may be reading books from a variety of teachers ... some more focused on Koan Zazen and/or the "Kensho" experience than others. So, let me summarize in a nutshell the perspective offered in this little corner of Shikantaza grounded Soto Zen ...

Kensho and such, much like the Grand Canyon ... eye opening, expansive place to visit, wouldn't want to/couldn't really live there. Buy a postcard, get back on the bus.

The treasure of the Way is something that needs to sink deeply into one's bones, to the marrow (even most good teachers who emphasize attaining a Kensho emphasize that too). As Shikantaza, there's the whole bus trip as sacred, each mile by mile.

And even if one has never been to the Grand Canyon, one can still have this Way sink in to the marrow, and have a glorious trip, mile by mile.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jundo]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

It may also be a good time to point folks to the "One Born, Twice Born Zen" posts.

Although a very imperfect description, painting with a too broad brush, I still find it useful in seeing the various flavors that "Zen books" come in ...

Part 1
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1704

Part 2
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1729

This next may also be helpful in seeing the various flavors of Buddhism, although also painting with a much too broad brush ...

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1757

Gassho, Jundo

[Ankai]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

But what is the measure of a superior method? More directly with an analogy, is the argument "a Stanley hammer is not as good as a Craftsman" or are we arguing that a ball-peen is better than a maul for this job?

I think it's more pragmatic, really.
You can use a sledge hammer to drive the same nail as a tap hammer. It'll be faster, too. But the sledge hammer will eventually destroy what you're building.

[disastermouse]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

But what is the measure of a superior method? More directly with an analogy, is the argument "a Stanley hammer is not as good as a Craftsman" or are we arguing that a ball-peen is better than a maul for this job?

I think it's more pragmatic, really.
You can use a sledge hammer to drive the same nail as a tap hammer. It'll be faster, too. But the sledge hammer will eventually destroy what you're building.

Shikantaza is such a radical practice that this particular tool analogy, no matter how we refine it, just plain doesn't work. Shikantaza is not a tool for attaining any goal. It is not practice for the big performance, it isn't hours put in learning scales so that you can play your instrument with aplomb (although it kind of is ALSO that), it is none other than the radical non-attainment of the Buddha in this moment - whether you realize it or not. I think this means that you can do shikantaza purely, expressing the 'self-not-self' way of the Buddha regardless of whether you see it directly or not. Chances are you will have kensho, near-kensho, satori, jhana-attainment, etc., at some point, but it oddly doesn't really matter.

I didn't quite realize the power of this practice when I got into that fight with Jundo and Taigu awhile back. My delusion can be very dense - ferocious even. Sadly, I had no teacher around to break me out of my kensho attachment very early on when it may have been much easier (and far less public).

Something I will say, though - it may be awhile before you are actually doing shikantaza even though you are doing shikantaza. It is an almost unexplainably radical practice. It may not work as well for you, but being as stupid as you really are, without putting up a 'Good Buddhist' front, will expose your errors to correction more quickly. It may not be your way, but the 'way of humiliation' has broken down some of my delusion fairly quickly (IMHO). Of course, it could also be that such a painful way is not entirely necessary. Either way, your 'secret practice', as Magid would put it, must fall by the wayside - and I don't know how that can be done without exposing it to a teacher after acknowledging it to yourself. Sitting zazen to attain kensho can be a version of this sort of secret practice.

All this is just my opinion. Sorry to be pedantic.

Chet

[Ryumon]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

I want to play devil's advocate for a second. Why does Brad say what he does? How does he know it's wrong? I'm not asking whether he's done hallucinogens or not, I'm asking, how does he know that it's wrong? While Buddhism may not have a tradition of using hallucinogens, that doesn't mean that it's wrong. I think a better answer here would be that in the Zen tradition, this is not the way, but we cannot know if this is right or wrong. I think he's being overly dogmatic, and not considering the possibility that there may be other ways.

[Jundo]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

I think that understanding shikantaza is very difficult at first. Shikantaza is not a method, and REALLY, there is no goal. Shikantaza is not a kensho-attainment method. I think that a lot of people have a hard time groking that. Ironically, dropping all ideas of attainment, IMHO, makes kensho much more likely, but it doesn't matter since if you are truly practicing shikantaza, you are basically practicing what kensho IS. Kensho is really just a dramatic validation of the principles of shikantaza, but shikantaza is itself the practice of enlightenment. It is radical non-attainment.

IMHO.

Chet

Hey Chet,

Wow, you sound like me! 8) Sounds like I finally got to you, and the brainwashing has been a success!

Yes, thus a moment of Zazen is a moment of Buddha ... Zazen is Enlightenment Realized!

Gassho, J

[disastermouse]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

I think that understanding shikantaza is very difficult at first. Shikantaza is not a method, and REALLY, there is no goal. Shikantaza is not a kensho-attainment method. I think that a lot of people have a hard time groking that. Ironically, dropping all ideas of attainment, IMHO, makes kensho much more likely, but it doesn't matter since if you are truly practicing shikantaza, you are basically practicing what kensho IS. Kensho is really just a dramatic validation of the principles of shikantaza, but shikantaza is itself the practice of enlightenment. It is radical non-attainment.

IMHO.

Chet

Hey Chet,

Wow, you sound like me! 8) Sounds like I finally got to you, and the brainwashing has been a success!

Yes, thus a moment of Zazen is a moment of Buddha ... Zazen is Enlightenment Realized!

Gassho, J

Hardly brainwashed - you just helped cut away my attachment to kensho and realize just exactly how profound is shikantaza. If I sound like a parrot, well, I'm open to that criticism as well.

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

I want to play devil's advocate for a second. Why does Brad say what he does? How does he know it's wrong? I'm not asking whether he's done hallucinogens or not, I'm asking, how does he know that it's wrong? While Buddhism may not have a tradition of using hallucinogens, that doesn't mean that it's wrong. I think a better answer here would be that in the Zen tradition, this is not the way, but we cannot know if this is right or wrong. I think he's being overly dogmatic, and not considering the possibility that there may be other ways.

Although I share your distrust of dogmatism, contradicting wrong paths is still an essential part of what a teacher does. Sometimes people with strong personalities such as Brad's may occasionally and unconsciously insert a lot of their own crap into the dialogue that may or may not belong there. Welcome to institutional Buddhism and the realization that sometimes even our teachers are assholes. Again, although I empathize with the energy of your objection, I agree with Brad for a few reasons.

First, awakening is not a state. If awakening was a state, it would be useless, as all states are subject to conditions and are wholly impermanent. I think this is what is meant when it's stated in Mahayana Buddhism that we are 'already awakened'. If genuine awakening was merely a state, we could all take mushrooms and be instant Buddhas. I don't know about you personally, but psychedelics did not convert me, nor anyone else I know who has used them, into eternally awakened Buddhas (wouldn't that be awesome though?).

Second, Fugen tells me that too much of anything, even zazen, can have negative side effects. Although I agree in principle, I haven't seen very much evidence of it yet. I have, however, seen much evidence of the harmful effect that overindulging in psychedelics can have. This doesn't by itself invalidate it, but it sure makes the whole adventure a lot more treacherous.

Third, more about states. 'State-chasing' is a real danger of any profound spiritual path (and maybe even a few non-profound ones - handled any snakes or spoken in tongues lately?). Awakening is not state-chasing, IMHO.

Chet

[Ryumon]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

It may be a wrong path as far as Zen is concerned, but other traditions do use hallucinogens as part of their practice. So my point is simply that what he's saying is not different from saying that, for example, praying to Jesus is wrong. That's dogmatic. Now, those who try to integrate hallucinogens into a Zen path, that's another story. Again, as they are not part of the tradition, it's safe to say they're wrong. But what is wrong anyway? Why can one be so sure it's wrong for Zen if Zen hasn't tried adding such chemicals?

Again, just being a devil's advocate, but I think if you replaced "hallucinogens" with other words - mantras, k?ans, etc. - then my point might be more clear.

[Kaishin]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

To be fair, I don't think Brad is using this section to defend the particular post I quoted, just the general line of counterargument he offered which was perfectly valid.

Ah, my mistake--I did not mean to imply that at all! Yes, this was just a response to other people's comments about his language on his blog (http://hardcorezen.blogspot.com). Sorry about that.

Gassho,
Matt

[disastermouse]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

It may be a wrong path as far as Zen is concerned, but other traditions do use hallucinogens as part of their practice. So my point is simply that what he's saying is not different from saying that, for example, praying to Jesus is wrong. That's dogmatic. Now, those who try to integrate hallucinogens into a Zen path, that's another story. Again, as they are not part of the tradition, it's safe to say they're wrong. But what is wrong anyway? Why can one be so sure it's wrong for Zen if Zen hasn't tried adding such chemicals?

Again, just being a devil's advocate, but I think if you replaced "hallucinogens" with other words - mantras, k?ans, etc. - then my point might be more clear.

Praying to Jesus is wrong only insofar as it's not a method by which to express enlightenment along the lines and terms of Buddhism in general and Zen specifically. Brad was offering a criticism of the line of thought that the use of hallucinogens are a 'shortcut' to Zen insight - not necessarily that the experiences had no merits at all in their own rights, although I would not be surprised that he also advocates this view.

Also, stating that methods outside the tradition are intrinsically wrong is not necessarily true, since Zen - even Soto Zen - is constantly refining itself and incorporating many methods, including but not limited to 'virtual sanghas', 'virtual dokusan', and psychoanalysis, none of which were or are part of the tradition before they were incorporated or used within the tradition. Put concisely, Zen is a constantly evolving discipline (the word 'discipline' is wrong, but I can think of nothing else to use in its stead).

Soto Zen emphasizes the radical 'method-of-no-method' that is Shikantaza, but it also makes use of koans, albeit in a decidedly different way than does Rinzai Zen. I also would not be surprised to find Soto Zen practitioners incorporating mantras, slogans, etc. into their daily practice.

Once again though, I want to emphasize that shikantaza is radical in that it is expressly not a tool by which to attain a state of mind, but rather a profound expression of the truth that is validated by kensho experiences. That truth is not contained within any state, it exists in all states without being any of them. Hence, it's aimless-aim can not be compared without remainder to other goal-oriented methods.

IMHO, and respectfully,

Chet

[Rev R]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

Brad was offering a criticism of the line of thought that the use of hallucinogens are a 'shortcut' to Zen insight

So what is unique about an insight that makes it specifically "Zen"?


To address some of Kirk's points...

I think there is a very important distinction to be made. That is between a legitimate religion/ spiritual practice which utilizes entheogens and people who abuse the framework of spirituality as an excuse to get wasted. The former as you probably know does require a degree of training as well a period of preparation before the substance is imbibed. The latter is usually "dose and go". I also think the latter is the primary target of much of the fervor against the idea.

Imagine for a second that Brad agreed with Rene, that the drug experience is on par or equal to zazen. Can't you just hear the outcry in the "Buddhist" blogosphere and publications? "Zen Master condones use of illegal drugs!" His personal feelings aside, would you not agree that there is a responsibility to not endorse something that could potentially lead to highly irresponsible choices?

[Kaishin]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

I think that understanding shikantaza is very difficult at first. Shikantaza is not a method, and REALLY, there is no goal. Shikantaza is not a kensho-attainment method. I think that a lot of people have a hard time groking that. Ironically, dropping all ideas of attainment, IMHO, makes kensho much more likely, but it doesn't matter since if you are truly practicing shikantaza, you are basically practicing what kensho IS. Kensho is really just a dramatic validation of the principles of shikantaza, but shikantaza is itself the practice of enlightenment. It is radical non-attainment.

IMHO.

Chet

I must have read this five times. Thank you.
-Matt

[Jundo]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

Let me just drop in that, growing up in the 70's, I have had my time dabbling and mind-diving with this and that and the other thing ...

... and, yes, perhaps I could say that the same something that I encountered here and there (and in a bit of Pink Floyd and Crimson and such ... that dates me ... ) is the same something that also led me to the section of the library with the Tao-Te-Ching, Ram Dass and Zen books ...

... I have traveled to some places in the world and encountered various potions ...

... and there was certainly some mind expanding, mind bending stuff which I cherish ...

... but no more or less particularly than the mind expanding, mind bending stuff I have encountered in life as, for example, a sometime runner, a reader of Shakespeare, a new father or husband, parachuting out of a plane, scuba diving, a parent's death, recovering from an illness and going home from hosital, earthquakes and nuclear accidents, picking weeds in the garden, a cold drink of water on a hot day, soaking in the rain, a good sneeze, etc. etc.

No, our Zen Practice is much more Timeless, All Encompassing and Expansive than even "Seeing God on Acid".

This whole life is the Trip.

Gassho, J

[disastermouse]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

Brad was offering a criticism of the line of thought that the use of hallucinogens are a 'shortcut' to Zen insight

So what is unique about an insight that makes it specifically "Zen"?

A few things to address here. Obviously, insights come in many flavors, but the ones typically considered 'Zen' would be those that verify the teachings of the Buddha primarily and the teachings of the Mahayana Zen sects specifically. Hence insights about the perfect design of a chair that follow from design principles could only very tangentially be related to Zen. But I think you're referring to what separates a drug insight from a Zen insight, am I right?

There are many places to go in this argument, but the one that kills the attempt to give them parity is this: Zen insights are not limited to certain states of mind or insight, but also to so-called 'mundane' states of mind. Shikantaza does not just express the perfect teachings of non-self exemplified in the Diamond Sutra, but ALSO the perfection of mundane mind states. The many hours spent sitting zazen where nothing 'special' seems to happen are ALSO an expression of Buddha's perfect Dharma. It is a rather human tendency to focus on the highs and lows of life - the stark contrasts - and indeed, in my humble opinion, these can be very critical opportunities to 'wake up'. But what about the long slogs through flat, seemingly uninteresting landscapes? What does the drug experience (almost always in heightened contrast) teach about the perfect reflection of Dharma that is doing your taxes, changing your baby's diaper, or kissing your wife? I believe it was Barry Magid who proposed this scenario in 'Ending the Pursuit of Happiness': Imagine that your practice period today was as good or bad as it would ever be. Imagine that every practice period you had from this day on was exactly like today's with no hope of ever 'improving'. Could you continue to sit zazen in light of such an admittedly unlikely scenario? Could you both be at peace and also not squelch the disappointment that would surely well up within you? If so, I believe that would describe the mindset exemplified in Shikantaza. If your approach becomes one such as this, you have defeated the poisons of ego without going to war with ego. This is an expression of the perfect Dharma, and kensho or the peak experiences of hallucinogens are quite beside the point. Nice if they happen. but irrelevant to the true expression of the Dharma.

What can the drug experience, trading as it does in very extreme states of mind, teach you about the perfection of the mundane?

To address some of Kirk's points...

I think there is a very important distinction to be made. That is between a legitimate religion/ spiritual practice which utilizes entheogens and people who abuse the framework of spirituality as an excuse to get wasted. The former as you probably know does require a degree of training as well a period of preparation before the substance is imbibed. The latter is usually "dose and go". I also think the latter is the primary target of much of the fervor against the idea.

I think this argument is rendered irrelevant in light of what I spoke to above. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Imagine for a second that Brad agreed with Rene, that the drug experience is on par or equal to zazen. Can't you just hear the outcry in the "Buddhist" blogosphere and publications? "Zen Master condones use of illegal drugs!" His personal feelings aside, would you not agree that there is a responsibility to not endorse something that could potentially lead to highly irresponsible choices?

We are talking about Brad Warner here, right? I can't proclaim to know him as well as others on this forum, nor especially his dharma-brother Jundo, but I truly believe that if Brad Warner thought the practice was meritorious, he would say so - and to hell with the Zen institution and its outrage.

Chet