ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

[Nenka]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

Of course I in no way support clouding the mind with drugs to reach 'the top of the mountain'. I just felt that it's a slippery slope (pun intended) when we invalidate the experiences and practices of others based upon our own (possibly deluded) understandings.

Gassho,

Shawn

Thank you for that post. You hit it, exactly.

Gassho,

Jennifer

[Hoyu]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

Drugs=delusion and if you do them and think they don't, consider why. I'll give you a hint.... It's in the equation :wink:

John,

I agree and know the type of drugs to which you are referring, but I would just qualify that statement with "unprescribed".

Gassho,
Dosho

Yes yes yes! I would never mean people who need clinical medication! Thank you for highlighting this Dosho!

Gassho,
John

[ghop]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

People are susceptible to confusing the effects of drugs with true spirituality.

I agree. Any desire to change reality is a form of insanity. This sounds harsh but it's true. And we all do it everyday with our thinking. Drugs and alcohol drown out the noise of thoughts. So we think we are "breaking through" to something special. But how can anything good come from something that destroys lives and society? It hasn't yet and it never will.

Thanks for sharing this post Jundo.

gassho
Greg

[Hoyu]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

I'm sure that this topic will be as controversial with responses here as it seems to have been on Brad's blog.
The thing is I've heard all the arguments, excuses, etc. Half the time they were coming from my own mouth as a former user! The Delusion I'm talking about is is not necessarily the experience itself but the thinking it comes from outside oneself through the drug. Here is a popular example: "Drugs make you more creative."
When I was using them and writing great music I thought that was absolutely true. Once I sobered up I realize that drugs have about the same ability to make me creative as they do to make me Japanese. They can't! If you're not already a creative person all the drugs in the world won't help with that. But, if you are creative you can misinterpret its source. It's like having a kensho like experience while sitting Zazen and then mistakenly assuming it came from the Zafu. Why not?! You were, after all, on it when it happend!

So I wrote a skit here about it.
I can just see the Buddha's disciples gathering around after his enlightenment:

Main Disciple:
"Oh magnificent one, we see that you have now attanied enlightenment. Please share with us the secret. You were sitting here so it must have come from this tree that you were under!"
Disciple announces: "lets all sit under this tree from now on!"
crowd cheers

Buddha: "No"

silence

Disciple: "Then it must be your wardrobe!"
Disciple announces: "lets all wear this from now on!"
crowd cheers

Buddha: "No"

silence

Disciple: "Then it must be what you had for lunch!"
Disciple announces: "Lets all eat this from now on!"
crowd cheers

Buddha: "uh...hey guys....you're kind of missing the mark here on this one."

Gassho,
John

[Rev R]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

I'm sure that this topic will be as controversial with responses here as it seems to have been on Brad's blog.

How would it? Most of the posts have been pretty much in agreement.

The thing is I've heard all the arguments, excuses, etc.

So it's effectively useless to even attempt to offer a counter-idea? Are you aware of some great horde of psychonauts lurking at the gates?

John, forgive me if it seems to be a mocking or abrupt tone, but it looks like you are circling the wagons and preparing for a fight. If so, why?

Rod

[Eika]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

I posted something similar on BW's comments, but to equate the experiences one has while taking certain types of drugs (I always assume people mean LSD, peyote, etc in these kinds of discussions) is to make a BIG erroneous assumption about zazen. The junk that may or may not happen during zazen is just the "scenery" as Uchiyama might say . . . just things to look at/drop/accept/sit with. Those experiences are certainly not the point/non-point I also think that these discussions are often raised by folks who haven't sat zazen and imagine a hyper-romanticized version of what happens when one practices shikantaza. There are meditative practices in other traditions that seek altered states through breathing techniques, but these traditions are only similar on the surface. They have their way, we have ours. Ask a soto guy about meditating and he'll speak of shikantaza; ask a shaman about meditation and you'll get a different story.
Lastly, I unapologetically reject the idea that all religious traditions are equally beneficial, benevolent, and effective. Living smack-dab in the Bible-belt I have repeatedly seen religion used in divisive, destructive, and self-destructive ways (there are also a great number of wonderful people around here lest you think I'm painting with a broad brush). So the mountain top idea is convenient, but I think there are a number of traditions, beliefs, and practices that don't lead to that mountain-top. They go nowhere. I've always liked Jundo's litmus test of "helpful and healthful." Beliefs and actions that fail this test are probably not needed.

Just my admittedly biased perspective on this. Being a jazz musician, I've seen SO many smart and talented guys end up spinning their wheels because they buy the myth that drugs are beneficial to musical development. So, I recognize my bias.

Gassho,
Eika

[Hoyu]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

John, forgive me if it seems to be a mocking or abrupt tone, but it looks like you are circling the wagons and preparing for a fight. If so, why?

:?: Not my intention. My apologies if what I said made you feel like I was though. I just wrote more at a later time, that I would have in the 1st place, had I the time. Maybe then it might not have come across the same way without a 2nd post on the same subject?

Gassho,
John

[Hoyu]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

like you are circling the wagons

p.s. I circle the clown cars not wagons! That's how I roll

Gassho,
John

[Ankai]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

The guy in the helicopter has seen the top, but he doesn't know a damned thing about the mountain.
There's no such thing as a shortcut.

[Rev R]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

like you are circling the wagons

p.s. I circle the clown cars not wagons! That's how I roll

Gassho,
John

Fire the confetti cannons!

[Hoyu]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

Fire the confetti cannons!

:lol:
_/_

[Rev R]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

oh if I had a confetti cannon when I was the skating rink birthday party clown.

[roky]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

For some of us with well-entrenched coping mechanisms, the only way to get on the path is to have the rug pulled out from under us – completely – one way to do this is with lsd – true, you can just avoid reocurrence of that “bad trip”, but for many of us, there's no going back to the old ways – such a graphic tasting of the truth is not easily forgotten, or covered over – like most of life's more valuable lessons, it is forced upon you when there is “no way out”

and the psychedelic experience should not be confused with your garden-variety of chemicals, the ones we use to get us through the day:alcohol,tv, paxil, valium, posting on this forum, etc. -- these serve to reinforce the coping mechanisms, not break them down

Not to deny the need for a practice, remembering that truth is not a static thing, but is to be discovered in each moment

[Kaishin]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

And Brad's "Right Speech" skills could use some work since they often undercut his arguments. Here is the Facebook status update he posted immediately following his encounter with the "Helicopter Metaphor" fellow (please pardon the expletive) mentioned in his blog:

"Drug users annoy the fuck out of me. Losers." - July 7, 2011 at 12:12am EST

Gassho,
Dosho

I'll just loop in Brad's response:

A number of people on my Facebook page took me to task for what they saw as a violation of "Right Speech." Listen. Right Speech isn't about being meek and mild and only telling people what they want to hear. Right Speech is saying what needs saying when it needs saying. Any speech that supports the use of drugs as a means to really get to know yourself is bullshit. Speech that softens the real hit some people need to get that message is useless

[Dosho]

Re: ZAZEN ON DRUGS: Brad's Post

I'll just loop in Brad's response:

A number of people on my Facebook page took me to task for what they saw as a violation of "Right Speech." Listen. Right Speech isn't about being meek and mild and only telling people what they want to hear. Right Speech is saying what needs saying when it needs saying. Any speech that supports the use of drugs as a means to really get to know yourself is bullshit. Speech that softens the real hit some people need to get that message is useless

Can you include where he said this?