Beginner's Sutra Studies

[Dokan]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

I noticed the Surangama Sutra mentioned here and thought I would throw in a recomendation. Having read a coupple of "Free" versions and a not so free version, I have to say that this one http://www.amazon.com/Surangama-Sutr...1292419&sr=8-1 had some very helpful notes.

Thanks Fuken! My Amazon Wish List is going to crash their servers I fear.

G,

s

[Jundo]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

I noticed the Surangama Sutra mentioned here and thought I would throw in a recomendation. Having read a coupple of "Free" versions and a not so free version, I have to say that this one http://www.amazon.com/Surangama-Sutr...1292419&sr=8-1 had some very helpful notes.

Thanks Fuken! My Amazon Wish List is going to crash their servers I fear.

G,

s

I am not the last word on Sutras ... but I generally find the Surangama a big, awkward clunker of a Sutra [especially the section arguing in detail the nature of the mind and senses], although with some truly wonderful sections and what is said to be a lovely style in the Chinese language.

Dogen actually seems to have felt the same way, although he also sometimes quoted from passages in the Surangama. He wrote in the Hokyo-ki of a conversation on this with his teacher, Ju-Ching, also not a Surangama fan ... calling it "not as skillful as other Mahayana Sutra" (pg 6 and 7 here) ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=mHJL5b6dRVUC&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq=%22say+that+these+are+the+ancestral+teachings+transmitted+from+India%22&source=bl&ots=NqMzLEyWHr&sig=D0mKO34PZP_RIvN_vvqFFgTxTyE&hl=en&ei=q4MrTsjlB4zjmAXkgvG5Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22say%20that%20these%20are%20the%20ancestral%20teachings%20transmitted%20from%20India%22&f=false

There is some debate about whether the Sutra was "made in China" or is older and from India. Probably the latter ...

http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/authenticity.htm

It has also been extremely popular with various syncretic movements in Chinese Buddhism [for example, combining Zen and Pure Land practices as in the commentary by Master Hsuan Hua found in the cited translation by the Buddhist Text Translation Society] ...

One of the main themes of the work is that in itself knowledge of the Dharma, that is the teachings of the-Buddha, is worthless unless accompanied by meditational ability, or samadhi power. Also stressed is the importance of moral precepts as a foundation for the Path. These themes are established in the work's prologue in which the erudite Ananda, who remembered everything the Buddha taught but never bothered to sit down and meditate, succumbs to an evil spell and is on the verge of being seduced by a prostitute, when he is saved by a mantra recited by the Buddha. The theme of how one effectively combats demonic influences over one's own mind continues throughout the Sutra.

In the immediately following section, on the location of the mind, the distinction is made between the mind characterized by discriminating consciousness and the true mind, which is found in all locations (i.e., underlying all dharmas). Also contained in the work are a discussion of meditational methodology in terms of the importance of picking the proper faculty (indriya) as a vehicle for meditation, instructions for the construction of a tantric bodhimanda, a long mantra, a description of fifty-seven Bodhisattva stages, a description of the karmic relationship among the destinies (gati), or paths of rebirth, and an enumeration of fifty demonic states encountered on the path. Generally speaking, the Sutra has a tantric/tathagatagarbha flavor with a dash of yogacara.

From the early Sung dynasty the Sutra was widely studied by all the Chinese Buddhist schools and was particularly popular among those of the syncretic movement. I have found reference to 127 Chinese commentaries on the Sutra, quite a few for such a lengthy work, including 59 in the Ming dynasty alone, when it was especially popular.

Let me also mention that the Sutra was generally never as popular in Japanese Buddhist circles as it was in China.

For folks really wanting to dive into a Sutra ... I do recommend the Vimalakirti Sutra (the Burton Watson translation is a favorite, but the Robert Thurman version has good footnotes).

Why the Vimalakirti Sutra?

Well, it is very poignant for a Sangha like this ... because it is about the layman Vimalakirti, who "bests" all the Great Bodhisattvas and other Buddhist "big shots" in practice and debate.

It also has sections with all the magical and fantastic elements of a typical Mahayana Sutra, so you can get a sample of that.

Gassho, J

[Fuken]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Jundo makes some good points here. Even with a competent teacher to explain, the Surangama can be difficult to fathom. And even though it is mandatory study for novices in China, it may not belong in the "Beginner's Sutra studies" category.

[Jundo]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Jundo makes some good points here. Even with a competent teacher to explain, the Surangama can be difficult to fathom. And even though it is mandatory study for novices in China, it may not belong in the "Beginner's Sutra studies" category.

Frankly, I think that particular Sutra just silly in parts, and its popularity in China may say a lot about aspects of Buddhism there.

Other sections of the Sutra are lovely.

Gassho, J

[disastermouse]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Hi,

Well, if someone wanted to take a quick jump into a very special Mahayana Sutra (also pretty short and available) ... I would recommend the Vimalakirti Sutra (the Burton Watson translation is a favorite, but the Robert Thurman version has good footnotes).

Why the Vimalakirti Sutra?

Well, it is very poignant for a Sangha like this ... because it is about the layman Vimalakirti, who "bests" all the Great Bodhisattvas and other Buddhist "big shots" in practice and debate.

It also has sections with all the magical and fantastic elements of a typical Mahayana Sutra, so you can get a sample of that.

After that, perhaps the Diamond Sutra. Then the Lotus Sutra.

The Surangama and Lankavatara and Flower Garland are very philosophical works, very arcane, and need a bit more understanding of what is going on.

Gassho, J

Wait, you want people to go to the Diamond Sutra as the second sutra? And then speak of an 'after that'? I'm kidding, of course, but the Diamond Sutra is...let"s just say that every time I read it, it still changes me.

Chet

[Jundo]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Hi,

Well, if someone wanted to take a quick jump into a very special Mahayana Sutra (also pretty short and available) ... I would recommend the Vimalakirti Sutra (the Burton Watson translation is a favorite, but the Robert Thurman version has good footnotes).

Why the Vimalakirti Sutra?

Well, it is very poignant for a Sangha like this ... because it is about the layman Vimalakirti, who "bests" all the Great Bodhisattvas and other Buddhist "big shots" in practice and debate.

It also has sections with all the magical and fantastic elements of a typical Mahayana Sutra, so you can get a sample of that.

After that, perhaps the Diamond Sutra. Then the Lotus Sutra.

The Surangama and Lankavatara and Flower Garland are very philosophical works, very arcane, and need a bit more understanding of what is going on.

Gassho, J

Wait, you want people to go to the Diamond Sutra as the second sutra? And then speak of an 'after that'? I'm kidding, of course, but the Diamond Sutra is...let"s just say that every time I read it, it still changes me.

Chet

Oh, yes, the Diamond Sutra and Heart Sutra are also first.

Gassho, J

[Kaishin]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Trying to summarize this discussion for easy reference (with Amazon links). From what I gather, a recommended approach to delving into study as a beginner would be:

• General Buddhist/Mahayana Background
  • Buddhist Thought, A Complete Introduction to the Indian Tradition -- Paul Williams and Anthony Tribe
    Mahayana Buddhism, The Doctrinal Foundations-- Paul Williams

• Pali Sutras
  • In the Buddha's Words -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

• Mahayana Sutras
  • Vimalakirti Sutra -- Burton Watson or Robert Thurman
    Heart Sutra -- Red Pine or Thich Nhat Hanh
    Diamond Sutra -- Red Pine or Thich Nhat Hanh
    Lotus Sutra -- Gene Reeves

• Dogen
  • Realizing Genjokoan -- Shohaku Okumura
    Visions of Awakening Space and Time -- Taigen Dan Leighton
    Eihei Dogen: Mystical Realist -- Hee-Jin Kim
    Dogen on Meditation and Thinking -- Hee-Jin Kim

• Other "Advanced" Sutras for Nerds
  • Surangama
    Lankavatara
    Flower Garland
    Mahaparinirvana
    Avatamsaka
    Platform
    Other Mahaprajnaparmita (Nagarjuna?)

I hope this is accurate and useful for everyone!

[Saijun]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Trying to summarize this discussion for easy reference (with Amazon links). From what I gather, a recommended approach to delving into study as a beginner would be:

• General Buddhist/Mahayana Background
  • Buddhist Thought, A Complete Introduction to the Indian Tradition -- Paul Williams and Anthony Tribe
    Mahayana Buddhism, The Doctrinal Foundations-- Paul Williams

• Pali Sutras
  • In the Buddha's Words -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

• Mahayana Sutras
  • Vimalakirti Sutra -- Burton Watson or Robert Thurman
    Heart Sutra -- Red Pine or Thich Nhat Hanh
    Diamond Sutra -- Red Pine or Thich Nhat Hanh
    Lotus Sutra -- Gene Reeves

• Dogen
  • Realizing Genjokoan -- Shohaku Okumura
    Visions of Awakening Space and Time -- Taigen Dan Leighton
    Eihei Dogen: Mystical Realist -- Hee-Jin Kim
    Dogen on Meditation and Thinking -- Hee-Jin Kim

• Other "Advanced" Sutras for Nerds
  • Surangama
    Lankavatara
    Flower Garland
    Mahaparinirvana
    Avatamsaka
    Platform
    Other Mahaprajnaparmita (Nagarjuna?)

I hope this is accurate and useful for everyone!

Hello Matt,

Very very useful!

Then, after you've made it through that, you're ready for Shobogenzo and Abhidharmakosha

Metta and Gassho,

Saijun

[Jundo]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Trying to summarize this discussion for easy reference (with Amazon links). From what I gather, a recommended approach to delving into study as a beginner would be:

• General Buddhist/Mahayana Background
  • Buddhist Thought, A Complete Introduction to the Indian Tradition -- Paul Williams and Anthony Tribe
    Mahayana Buddhism, The Doctrinal Foundations-- Paul Williams

• Pali Sutras
  • In the Buddha's Words -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

• Mahayana Sutras
  • Vimalakirti Sutra -- Burton Watson or Robert Thurman
    Heart Sutra -- Red Pine or Thich Nhat Hanh
    Diamond Sutra -- Red Pine or Thich Nhat Hanh
    Lotus Sutra -- Gene Reeves

• Dogen
  • Realizing Genjokoan -- Shohaku Okumura
    Visions of Awakening Space and Time -- Taigen Dan Leighton
    Eihei Dogen: Mystical Realist -- Hee-Jin Kim
    Dogen on Meditation and Thinking -- Hee-Jin Kim

• Other "Advanced" Sutras for Nerds
  • Surangama
    Lankavatara
    Flower Garland
    Mahaparinirvana
    Avatamsaka
    Platform
    Other Mahaprajnaparmita (Nagarjuna?)

I hope this is accurate and useful for everyone!

A very nice list! That will keep folks busy for awhile!

(Buddhists traditionally in the Suttas and Sutras would like to list things ... like the Eightfold Path, the Six This or Ten That ... so we might call it a "List of Lists"! )

Also, don't forget to dive into the many other good readings on our "Recommended List"

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?5711-SUGGESTED-BOOK-LIST-for-TREELEAF-SANGHA

Also, remember to always read all these words and letters as simultaneously "beyond words and letters"! 8) Dogen was certainly not an "abandon all words and letters" kind of fellow, but more a "dance with words and letters" and be free of being caught by words and letters fellow ... and see the Dharma that shines behind, around, and right through-and-through the heart of words and letters. He wrote, for example ...

The monastics of future generations will be able to understand one-taste Zen (ichimizen) based on words and letters, if they devote their efforts to spiritual practice by seeing the universe through words and letters, and words and letters through the universe.
Tenzo kyokan, trans. Hee-Jin Kim, Dogen on Meditation and Thinking, p.60

Gassho, J

[Hoyu]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Awesome Matt! Thank you for organizing it so well. Honestly I was trying to get it all straight but kind of got lost in the process. Your list is clear and concise making it easy to navigate. Very much appreciated!

Gassho,
John

[Dokan]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Trying to summarize this discussion for easy reference (with Amazon links). From what I gather, a recommended approach to delving into study as a beginner would be:

• General Buddhist/Mahayana Background
  • Buddhist Thought, A Complete Introduction to the Indian Tradition -- Paul Williams and Anthony Tribe
    Mahayana Buddhism, The Doctrinal Foundations-- Paul Williams

• Pali Sutras
  • In the Buddha's Words -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

• Mahayana Sutras
  • Vimalakirti Sutra -- Burton Watson or Robert Thurman
    Heart Sutra -- Red Pine or Thich Nhat Hanh
    Diamond Sutra -- Red Pine or Thich Nhat Hanh
    Lotus Sutra -- Gene Reeves

• Dogen
  • Realizing Genjokoan -- Shohaku Okumura
    Visions of Awakening Space and Time -- Taigen Dan Leighton
    Eihei Dogen: Mystical Realist -- Hee-Jin Kim
    Dogen on Meditation and Thinking -- Hee-Jin Kim

• Other "Advanced" Sutras for Nerds
  • Surangama
    Lankavatara
    Flower Garland
    Mahaparinirvana
    Avatamsaka
    Platform
    Other Mahaprajnaparmita (Nagarjuna?)

I hope this is accurate and useful for everyone!

Absolutely fantastic...thank you!

Gassho

s

[ChrisA]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Gassho, Matto!

[Kaishin]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Glad it's helpful!

Jundo, can you speak to the writings of Nagarjuna? If I remember correctly, in one of Brad Warner's books he claimed that Nishijima Roshi only considered two Buddhist writers worth reading: Dogen and Nagarjuna. I know that his most well-known work is "Fundamental Verses on the Middle Way" (I think?).

Would that be a good starting point? Any recommended books? I see Nishijima Roshi has a commentary coming out next month: http://www.amazon.com/Fundamental-Wisdo ... 223&sr=1-1

Gassho,
Matt

[Dokan]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

If i can be frank and with full disclosure as to my complete lack of direct knowledge. How trustworthy or widely accepted is Nishijima Roshi's Buddhist views nowadays? I've read several things from him that seem quite heavy with psychology and more humanistic than Buddhist. Am I completely off or is it just I've known so little of his teaching that I need more exposure?

Gassho

S

Sent from my SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

[Rich]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

If i can be frank and with full disclosure as to my complete lack of direct knowledge. How trustworthy or widely accepted is Nishijima Roshi's Buddhist views nowadays? I've read several things from him that seem quite heavy with psychology and more humanistic than Buddhist. Am I completely off or is it just I've known so little of his teaching that I need more exposure?

Gassho

S

Sent from my SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

I really liked 'To Meet the Real Dragon' . Beneath all the 'psychology' is a very simple teaching.