Beginner's Sutra Studies

[joshbrown]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

How about the Platform Sutra? Haven't seen that mentioned yet....

[Jundo]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

How about the Platform Sutra? Haven't seen that mentioned yet....

Oh yes, of course! (Although perhaps the only work called a "Sutra" even if not said to be the words of the Buddha, but purported to be ... even if not actually ... by the 6th Ancestor in China, Hui-neng ... unless, of course, one says actual author(s) = Hui-neng = Buddha! 8) )

And, ya know, the Platform Sutra even changed and developed over the years as different editors "mucked" with it ... adding to it, sometimes really changing the meaning ... sometimes maybe for the better, sometimes maybe not ...

A still highly respected translation of the Platform Sutra (with a wonderful introduction explaining what is known by scholars ... and not known ... and pretty well known to be a legend ... about Huineng) is ...

The Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch by Hui-neng and Philip Yampolsky

That is the earlier, simpler 'Dunhuang' Version, recommended by Jundo, and is available in print and also available online (but I think without the introduction): http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/ ... polsky.pdf .

As well, a later, more elaborate version from the 13th century, in which many more writers had a hand, is available online: here

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/ ... lation.pdf )

Here is a scholar's essay (recommended really just for our Buddhist historians out there 8) ) on the relationship of these various versions, and the changing images of Lineage and Enlightenment which they represent:

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/His ... enment.pdf

This very interesting essay may be of more general interest, and also has much to say on the background of the so-called divide between "Northern Chan" and "Southern Chan" that played a role in all this, and may have been the reason the "Platform Sutra" was written in the first place ... I recommend it.

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/His ... n_Chan.pdf

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Diamond Sutra

I just found this modern contemporary translation.

http://www.diamond-sutra.com/index.html]http://www.diamond-sutra.com/index.html[/url]

Yes, the Diamond Sutra ... like the 'short and to the point (beyond short/long or point)' "Heart Sutra" ... is one of the "Perfection of Wisdom" Sutras I mentioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_Sutra

The translation with Red Pine has some good explanations of each Passage ...

http://www.amazon.com/The-Diamond-Sutra-Red-Pine/dp/1582432562

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Yes, Realizing Genjokoan is one of the bet books out there to introduce Dogen thinking about life-practice and a wonderful gate into Buddhist theory too.

I decided to order this book based on this recommendation. I realized I needed some sort of explanation/introduction after I started listening to an audio version of Moon in a Dewdrop and couldn't really understand much of what was being read. I tend to do better with a "hard copy" in my hand that I can go back over when I need to, rather than listening and trying to sort out what's being said while I'm listening. I miss too much that way and get lost.

Okumura's Realizing Genjokoan is a wonder, and a good gateway entrance into the amazing maze of Dogen.

I would say though, that to really start to get a foothold on the tangled twists and turns and leaps of Shobogenzo, some other study is helpful ...

I do usually recommend a couple of things for folks who want to dive headlong into the thick and thorny maze which is Shobogenzo (not to be confused with Dogen's Shobogenzo-Zuimonki, which we recently read in the bookclub)

Before reading and really 'digging Dogen', the best intro is to read Okumura Roshi's look at Genjo Koan ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7886-BOOK-RECOMMENDATION-Realizing-Genjokoan-%28Shohaku-Okamura%29

Much denser, but worth the effort, are the two Dr. Kim books (He wrote them a few years apart, and changed interpretation slightly over the years just a drop ) ... Each can be rather heavy going at points, but worth it.

http://www.amazon.com/Eihei-Dogen-Mystical-Realist-Revised/dp/0861713761/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251161011&sr=8-3

http://www.amazon.com/Dogen-Meditation-Thinking-Reflection-View/dp/0791469263/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

Also ... I VERY strongly recommend... Visions of Awakening Space and Time: Dogen and the Lotus Sutra (Paperback) by Taigen Dan Leighton (Author) ... about how Dogen wild-ed and bent the already wild and bent Lotus Sutra into something even more bent and wild ...

http://www.amazon.com/Lotus-Sutra-Contemporary-Translation-Buddhist/dp/0861715713/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

You probably want to read a good translation of the Lotus Sutra first, to see the "tune" that Dogen was working with. This by Reeves is very readable and a fantastic tale, right up there with "Alice in Wonderland" and such ...

http://www.amazon.com/Lotus-Sutra-Contemporary-Translation-Buddhist/dp/0861715713

In fact, you might start with Taigen and the Lotus Sutra --before-- reading Dr. Kim, as Taigen is short and easier going to read.

Here is an essay available online, a part of Taigen's book. It will give you a taste ...

http://www.mtsource.org/articles/dogen_lotsutra.html

Nishijima Roshi also has a helpful short booklet on "Understanding the Shobogenzo", although in his later years he has been too too enthusiastic (in my view) about trying to place each sentence of Shobogenzo, in a nearly one to one correspondence, into each of the four categories of view that Nishijima Roshi suggests. It is not a comfortable fit (I feel that Nishijima Roshi went overboard with his very helpful, very insightful perspective on 3 Philosophies and 1 Reality, by his trying to stuff Dogen into that almost line by line and overlooking anything that does not fit. It is much like trying to stuff all of Coltrane into 4 chords or all Picasso into 4 types of brushstroke) .

http://www.dogensangha.org/articles.htm#Understanding

And even then, even with all the guidebooks and tips, Dogen's amazing maze of Shobogenzo is often like trying to find the tune in a wild, unbridled, Ornett Colman cacophonious free jazz fest ...

A little more by me on How to Read Dogen in the following thread:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2999

Gassho, Jundo

[Dokan]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

I would say though, that to really start to get a foothold on the tangled twists and turns and leaps of Shobogenzo, some other study is helpful ...

Absolutely wonderful Jundo. Thank you very much for this overview. This is exactly what I was looking for on proceeding into more academic aspects of my practice. I received this week Treasury of the True Dharma Eye and have just finished reading the quite impressive (and surprisingly long) preface & timeline. I will finish my reading of Okumura's book and then follow the path you stated.

Afterwards I may come back to this thread to ask about other's experiences in reading Shobo Genzo. Seems logical to read the fascicles in chronological order, but sometimes logic is flawed.

Thank you once again.

Gassho,

Shawn

[Seiryu]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

With Sutra studies, maybe (if we haven't already done so in the past) we can read the Lotus and Diamond sutra( and others) the same way we do our book club.
It will be nice to hear thoughts on traditional sutras from the Sangha as a whole.

Just an idea

Gassho

Seiryu

[Jundo]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

With Sutra studies, maybe (if we haven't already done so in the past) we can read the Lotus and Diamond sutra( and others) the same way we do our book club.
It will be nice to hear thoughts on traditional sutras from the Sangha as a whole.

Just an idea

Gassho

Seiryu

Ya know, on this ... assuming someone does want to dive into the Sutras ... I might encourage slow, personal sailing as opposed to a group effort. It is not "Bible Study" as one might find in a church, but something more ... ... ... personal.

That is just my feeling.

Gassho, J

[Ekai]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Thank you for all the suggestions Jundo and thank you Shards for this post . I have not done much sutra study either but I would really like to start. I have read plenty of books on Buddhism but not the sutras. I just didn't know where to start until now. Now I have no excuse!

Thanks,
Jodi

[Jundo]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Hi,

Well, if someone wanted to take a quick jump into a very special Mahayana Sutra (also pretty short and available) ... I would recommend the Vimalakirti Sutra (the Burton Watson translation is a favorite, but the Robert Thurman version has good footnotes).

Why the Vimalakirti Sutra?

Well, it is very poignant for a Sangha like this ... because it is about the layman Vimalakirti, who "bests" all the Great Bodhisattvas and other Buddhist "big shots" in practice and debate.

It also has sections with all the magical and fantastic elements of a typical Mahayana Sutra, so you can get a sample of that.

After that, perhaps the Diamond Sutra. Then the Lotus Sutra.

The Surangama and Lankavatara and Flower Garland are very philosophical works, very arcane, and need a bit more understanding of what is going on.

Gassho, J

[Rev R]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Jundo,

Can you recommend a good translation of Lankavatara?

[Jundo]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Jundo,

Can you recommend a good translation of Lankavatara?

The only one I know is the one by D.T. Suzuki, accompanied by his additional volume, Essays on the Lankavatara. I understand it is imperfect as a translation, but impressive given how many years ago the translation was done.

Not easy going, the Lankavatara.

Gassho, J

[Rev R]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Not easy going, the Lankavatara.

Thanks for the suggestion and the word of caution.

~Rod

[Mari]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Yes, Realizing Genjokoan is one of the bet books out there to introduce Dogen thinking about life-practice and a wonderful gate into Buddhist theory too.

I decided to order this book based on this recommendation. I realized I needed some sort of explanation/introduction after I started listening to an audio version of Moon in a Dewdrop and couldn't really understand much of what was being read. I tend to do better with a "hard copy" in my hand that I can go back over when I need to, rather than listening and trying to sort out what's being said while I'm listening. I miss too much that way and get lost.

Okumura's Realizing Genjokoan is a wonder, and a good gateway entrance into the amazing maze of Dogen.

I would say though, that to really start to get a foothold on the tangled twists and turns and leaps of Shobogenzo, some other study is helpful ...

This was really helpful, Jundo. Especially in the order you suggested. The Lotus Sutra translation (which can be downloaded from Amazon for Kindle For PC, very nice) you mentioned was much easier for me to read than the Watson translation that I had, which had "turned me off" on the whole Sutra itself. It just seemed way too "dry". I'd also had a problem with the fantastic, as you said "Alice in Wonderland" aspects of time and events in it. Visions of Awakening Space and Time is also giving a better understanding of the Sutra, since among other things now I can see that there's a reason the Sutra doesn't seem to "show up" in the Sutra, but it's constantly pointing to itself as the Sutra. Lots of "Oh! Okay!" moments lately in my reading

The jazz analogy that you used is also starting to make sense; and not only that, but I read a lot of Beat-Generation poetry and literature when I was younger, especially Ginsberg and Kerouac. Both were inspired by Jazz and Zen writings, so I'm beginning to see that seemingly contradictory but still coherent pattern. Lines referencing other lines, but then twisting them back into the theme. Dogen using the Lotus Sutra style of pointing to itself in his talks as pointing to the talk itself, for instance. It's of course just beginning, only slight comprehension, more a finger-hold right now than a foothold, but very exciting (as beginnings tend to be).

Thank You!

[Fuken]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

I noticed the Surangama Sutra mentioned here and thought I would throw in a recomendation. Having read a coupple of "Free" versions and a not so free version, I have to say that this one http://www.amazon.com/Surangama-Sutr...1292419&sr=8-1 had some very helpful notes.

[Kaishin]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Just started reading Realizing Genjokoan. Definitely a terrific reference, clears the mist so to speak.

Thanks,
Matt