Beginner's Sutra Studies

[Jundo]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Jundo, can you speak to the writings of Nagarjuna? If I remember correctly, in one of Brad Warner's books he claimed that Nishijima Roshi only considered two Buddhist writers worth reading: Dogen and Nagarjuna. I know that his most well-known work is "Fundamental Verses on the Middle Way" (I think?).

Would that be a good starting point? Any recommended books? I see Nishijima Roshi has a commentary coming out next month: [http://www.amazon.com/Fundamental-Wi...damental-Wisdo ... 223&sr=1-1[/url]

Gassho,
Matt

Hi Matt,

I had a very nice chat with Mongen about Nargarjuna when we were both at the monastery here some weeks ago. I described Nargarjuna's MMK (Mulamadhyamakakarika) as something like Stephen Hawking's "A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME": Each is a book that describes some very fundamental, beautiful truths about the universe and reality ... but can be very hard going when one gets to all the math equations that demonstrate it. (In fact, someone described "A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME" as the most popular book owned by millions of people, read cover to cover by very few! :? )

In Hawking's case, the dense math covers such important topics as Black Holes, Relativity. Strings and Quantum Mechanics. In Nargarjuna's case, it is "Emptiness" ... but demonstrated and proven in a very formal style of Indian logic (and anti-logic). Here is a taste of just a sentence or so (from a section discussing "Emptiness" in "Karma/Cause and Effect", in two widely read translations by Kalupahana and Garfield):

If this action is associated with defilements, these defilements, in turn, are not found in themselves. If defilements are not in themselves, how could there be an action in itself? (Kalupahana)

While this action has affliction as its nature
This affliction is not real in itself.
If affliction is not in itself,
How can action be real in itself? (Garfield)

Action and defilements are specified as the conditions of the [different] bodies. However, if these actions and defilements are empty, what could be said about the bodies? (Kalupahana)

Action and affliction
Are taught to be conditions that produce bodies.
If action and affliction are empty,
What would one say about bodies? (Garfield)

Mahayana Buddhism, including all the Zen teachings, turn on Emptiness ... and Nargarjuna was certainly one of the most influential and gifted explainers of "Emptiness" (just like Hawking and his Black Holes). We dance Emptiness in our Practice. Still, Nargarjuna's "math" is hard going! (In my chat about it with Mongen, he made that point that moving through Nargarjuna's complex Indian-logical writings may be difficult ... but worth the trip. I agree ... but also feel that reading Nargarjuna is not really necessary to piercing Emptiness, just like one can rather "get" Black Holes ... and get sucked into one ... without getting Hawking's equations).

Now, what about Nishijima Roshi?

This was a subject that, about two years ago, caused some difficulties between Roshi, me and some other of his students. Roshi is now suffering from the advanced stages of age related dementia (he is 92), and his family has taken charge of his nursing. However, already from several years ago, he was getting very very confused. While Roshi is a gifted translator of Buddhist texts in Japanese and English, his attempt at a Sanskrit translation of the MMK was ... to be blunt ... very tangled and confused, the product of his age related problems, fixation on certain views of Buddhism which hardened in his later years, and poor abilities in Sanskrit (there are very basic misunderstandings of grammar by Nishijima Roshi such that, for example, Nargarjuna's point is often backwards from the original) and strained English. Here is a taste ...

http://gudoblog-e.blogspot.com/search?q=Examination+of+the+Fusion+between+Action+and+Resulf+

Roshi's version of the already convoluted passages above is, for example:

26. The place, where Action has naturally included severe pain, is just this world.

However the severe pain is not only the real situation of facts there.

In the actual situations there, the severe pain is not all at that place.

Action might produce something, which is Real Fact itself,


27. Action and the severe pain are just belonging to physical bodies.

And many Truths are the contents, which are spoken with words.

When both Action and the severe pain are existing in the balanced autonomic nervous
system,

What kind and from what place those kinds of many bodies come from?

Roshi insisted that the translation should be published. Some folks among his students went along, mostly to please our Teacher. On the other hand, I, and some others, told Nishijima Roshi politely that perhaps the translation did not represent his best effort, and should not be published. He did not like us to tell him and became quite upset with me, saying that I was trying to sabotage his work, even steal it. However, at this point, I know it was just his age and confusion talking, the effects of his oncoming dementia. My own mother went through a very similar period after a series of strokes.

Now, Brad Warner has done a version which, I understand (because I have not read it yet, so I will just give Brad the benefit of the doubt that he was able to turn it into something worthwhile until I do), tries to save Nishijima Roshi's translation by treating it ... not as a translation ... but as something merely loosely "inspired by" Nargarjuna. Brad apparently added some commentary to try to tie it together. I have not yet seen the result, but know that the publication has been delayed several times now. I am not sure why. Unless the work is really repaired or changed into something good, I still might think it should not be published.

Getting old is not fun sometimes.

Gassho, J

[Dokan]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Thank you for clarifying Jundo. This should help me re-read his blog and work in a new light to be honest. He also was in a short movie I watched recently discussing the autonomic nervous system and it's application in meditation. Was interesting if nothing else.

Much metta & many bows to Nishijima roshi.

Gassho,

s

[Jundo]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Hi,

Awhile back, the subject came up of Nishijima Roshi's recently published translation of Nargarjuna's classic MMK (Mulamadhyamakakarika). At that time, I wrote the following:

Now, what about Nishijima Roshi?

This was a subject that, about two years ago, caused some difficulties between Roshi, me and some other of his students. Roshi is now suffering from the advanced stages of age related dementia (he is 92), and his family has taken charge of his nursing. However, already from several years ago, he was getting very very confused. While Roshi is a gifted translator of Buddhist texts in Japanese and English, his attempt at a Sanskrit translation of the MMK was ... to be blunt ... very tangled and confused, the product of his age related problems, fixation on certain views of Buddhism which hardened in his later years, and poor abilities in Sanskrit (there are very basic misunderstandings of grammer, all made worse by his strained English. Here is a taste ...

/http://gudoblog-e.blogspot.com/search?q=Examination+of+the+Fusion+between+Action+ and+Resulf+

Roshi's version of the already convoluted passages above is, for example:

26. The place, where Action has naturally included severe pain, is just this world.

However the severe pain is not only the real situation of facts there.

In the actual situations there, the severe pain is not all at that place.

Action might produce something, which is Real Fact itself,


27. Action and the severe pain are just belonging to physical bodies.

And many Truths are the contents, which are spoken with words.

When both Action and the severe pain are existing in the balanced autonomic nervous
system,

What kind and from what place those kinds of many bodies come from?

Roshi insisted that the translation should be published. Some folks among his students went along, mostly to please our Teacher. On the other hand, I, and some others, told Nishijima Roshi politely that perhaps the translation did not represent his best effort, and should not be published. He did not like us to tell him and became quite upset with me, saying that I was trying to sabotage his work, even steal it. However, at this point, I know it was just his age and confusion talking, the effects of his oncoming dementia. My own mother went through a very similar period after a series of strokes.

Now, Brad Warner has done a version which, I understand (because I have not read it yet, so I will just give Brad the benefit of the doubt that he was able to turn it into something worthwhile until I do), tries to save Nishijima Roshi's translation by treating it ... not as a translation ... but as something merely loosely "inspired by" Nargarjuna. Brad apparently added some commentary to try to tie it together. I have not yet seen the result, but know that the publication has been delayed several times now. I am not sure why. Unless the work is really repaired or changed into something good, I still might think it should not be published.

Getting old is not fun sometimes.

Gassho, J

I recently finished reading Nishijima Roshi's very loose "translation" of the MMK. It has been subjected to some scathing reviews, which I believe are generally deserved and not unreasonable ... please have a look.

http://www.amazon.com/Fundamental-Wisdom-Middle-Way-Mulamadhyamakakarika/product-reviews/0983358907/ref=cm_cr_dp_hist_1?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&filterBy=addOneStar

After sitting with the matter a bit, I felt compelled to put the following "on the record". There is already much talk about how poor this "translation" is ... and how misleading the marketing of the book ... and folks do not realize that Nishijima Roshi was not well when he did this project. So, I put my experience on the record ... and that's that. My review of the book, which I have posted at Amazon ... I am sad about this ...

NON-DUAL LOYALTIES

As one of Nishijima Roshi's students and 'Dharma Heirs', I would like to comment a little bit on how this book came to be published ... why several of us thought it never should have been. Others among Nishijima's students, for their own good motives, believed it worthy of release in Roshi's name. All were acting with good intentions, certainly. That is not to be doubted. Nonetheless, the publication of this book is, many of us believe, a tragic mistake that may come to seriously tarnish the reputation of a gifted translator who cared so much about the quality of his translations. The fact is that the book was written at a time when Nishijima Roshi, due to his very advanced age, was not well and becoming not fully aware of himself. All his students, both those who supported publication in accordance with Roshi's wishes and those who cautioned against it, meant well.

There are many ways to express loyalty and caring toward an aged teacher and mentor. Nishijima Roshi, now 92 years old, is of such poor physical and mental strength that he withdrew completely from public life soon after the book was completed. In life, many of us in our families have faced an aging parent or grandparent. The reactions of his "children" took many forms ... all out of loyalty to him, all not to be doubted. Some, out of devoted loyalty, simply wanted this book published because Nishijima Roshi, their beloved teacher, wanted it published. Many knew that there were serious problems with the book (and some tried to patch up a few of those problems in the editing ... an impossible task for a book like this), yet in their loyalty they followed Nishijima's wishes despite their concerns. Others, out of loyalty, simply were unable to believe ... or admit to themselves ... that Nishijima could have so weakened, that there could be any mistakes in the text he had worked on so diligently. Still others, for their own reason, chose to remain silent. And some of us (I was one) believed that it is right to speak up and not let someone we love harm himself if he does not really understand.

I visited Nishijima Roshi at his home on almost a monthly basis during his writing of this book. I also was a reader of his draft which he published on his blog every few days. From both, it quickly became apparent that Nishijima Roshi was not completely in control of what he was doing on this project. As other reviews here have pointed out, the combination of his understanding of Sanskrit (I believe this to be Roshi's first attempt at a major Sanskrit translation, all his previous ... and masterful ... translations being from the Japanese), the well known complexity of the text, and Roshi's very personal and particular usage of English were all at issue (in previous translation efforts, such as the wonderful "Shobogenzo" volumes, native translators among his students such as Chodo Cross were able to polish the rough work into a diamond. In this case, it was simply too much, and several of his students threw up their hands and withdrew from the project in despair). There was also the issue of Roshi's attempt to prove agreement and a match between Nagarjuna and Roshi's own personal interpretations of Buddhist doctrine known as the "Four Philosophies and One Reality". As the co-author admits too in the book, the co-author also had and has no particular command of Sanskrit and had very little ability to try to fix any problems. He did manage to write a commentary attempting to bring some sense to the content.

Some of us suggested that it not be called a "translation" of Nagarjuna ... but perhaps an "impression" or a "personal treatment" or "reflection" or "personal interpretation" by Nishijima. As with any poem or lyrical expression, great treasures can be found in another writer's reworking or revoicing, and in this case, in Nishijima Roshi's interpretation or re-interpretations of what he felt, in his heart, Nagarjuna may have believed. The suggestion not to call it a "translation" was refused.

I believe that a loyal student must, sometimes, step in and speak honestly to an aged parent. I applaud the ability of my teacher, in the ninth decade of his life, to have undertaken such a task ... trying to learn Sanskrit nearly from scratch in order to translate one of the most difficult works in that language. I celebrate his ability to make his own personal interpretations of what that text may mean ... mean to Nishijima whether or not to Master Nagarjuna. However, even if this book were fit for release under those terms ... it should not have been done in this way, with this title, with this description of what the book supposedly is. It is only the view of some of his students, and others among his students may certainly disagree (or silently agree).

Nonetheless, I will give '3 stars' to this book ... representing the Middle Way. In part, I want to award '5 stars' recognizing the heart and effort and study that Nishijima Roshi placed into the project. Part of me wants to award '1 star' for the result in terms of the "translation" that came about for reasons beyond the author's control. Nagarjuna might explain how all such stars and words are simply Empty in the end.

Gassho, with sadness,

Jundo Cohen (Treeleaf Sangha)

[Kaishin]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Thank you for sharing your honest assessment. I'm sure you will get as much flak for this as the book itself got. Wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see some people crafting another "Brad vs. Jundo" conflict out of this, sadly.

_/_

[Kaishin]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Update: Brad has worked with the publisher to get the title changed on future printings/eBook version:

http://hardcorezen.blogspot.com/2011/12 ... field.html

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

That was a joke from Brad I believe. :wink:

A sad story indeed.
The only thing that worries me is that someone who doesn't have a teacher and doesn't bother to read the reviews might mistake this for a "translation", when it is not. It won't matter in a hundred years and I doubt it will soil Nishijima Roshi's reputation much.

I believe Jundo's intentions in trying to stop the publication and writing his review were good.
I believe Brad's intentions in publishing his teacher's work were good.

And intentions do matter.

[Kaishin]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

That was a joke from Brad I believe. :wink:

Really? Maybe I missed part of the post... I thought he was serious!

[Kaishin]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

I just started reading (well about 1/4 through it) Red Pine's Heart Sutra book, and it's a wonder. He's a great writer, adopting a mix of scholarly and "lay" commentary. Highly readable, and what a fascinating dive into the HS's history and interpretations. Highly recommended!

[Kaishin]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Just discovered Red Pine has his translation/commentary of the Lankavatara Sutra coming out in two days (24 Jan. 2012):

http://www.amazon.com/Lankavatara-Sutra ... 944&sr=1-1

[Dokan]

Re: Beginner's Sutra Studies

Just discovered Red Pine has his translation/commentary of the Lankavatara Sutra coming out in two days (24 Jan. 2012):

http://www.amazon.com/Lankavatara-Sutra ... 944&sr=1-1

Ordered. WIll show up on my kindle on the 1st. I better get crack-a-lacking as I just picked up a book last week at a used bookstore that, so far, is really good. Platform Sutra by Yampolsky.

Thanks for the tip.

Gassho,

Dokan

[Kaishin]

(resurrecting an old but good thread)

What about the Ksitigarbha Sutra? http://www.cttbusa.org/esscommentary/earthstore1.htm

With Jizo being so popular in Japan, was wondering how important this sutra (and related ones) are in our tradition.

[Byokan]

Trying to summarize this discussion for easy reference (with Amazon links). From what I gather, a recommended approach to delving into study as a beginner would be:

• General Buddhist/Mahayana Background
  • Buddhist Thought, A Complete Introduction to the Indian Tradition -- Paul Williams and Anthony Tribe
    Mahayana Buddhism, The Doctrinal Foundations-- Paul Williams

• Pali Sutras
  • In the Buddha's Words -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

• Mahayana Sutras
  • Vimalakirti Sutra -- Burton Watson or Robert Thurman
    Heart Sutra -- Red Pine or Thich Nhat Hanh
    Diamond Sutra -- Red Pine or Thich Nhat Hanh
    Lotus Sutra -- Gene Reeves

• Dogen
  • Realizing Genjokoan -- Shohaku Okumura
    Visions of Awakening Space and Time -- Taigen Dan Leighton
    Eihei Dogen: Mystical Realist -- Hee-Jin Kim
    Dogen on Meditation and Thinking -- Hee-Jin Kim

• Other "Advanced" Sutras for Nerds
  • Surangama
    Lankavatara
    Flower Garland
    Mahaparinirvana
    Avatamsaka
    Platform
    Other Mahaprajnaparmita (Nagarjuna?)

I hope this is accurate and useful for everyone!

An interesting thread indeed, and one to come back to again and again. Thank you Kaishin, for resurrecting it. The list that you pulled together is wonderful, many thanks.

Gassho
raindrop
sat today

[Jakuden]

So many treasures hidden in this forum! Thank you for uncovering this one!
Gassho,
Sierra
SatToday

[Jundo]

(resurrecting an old but good thread)

What about the Ksitigarbha Sutra? http://www.cttbusa.org/esscommentary/earthstore1.htm

With Jizo being so popular in Japan, was wondering how important this sutra (and related ones) are in our tradition.

Hmmm. Jizo has been a very important figure and still is, especially for women and couples suffering with pregnancy or the loss or miscarriage of a child ...

XVIII - Whattsa Who'sa Bodhisattva? - Kshitigarbha (Jizo)

http://www.treeleaf.org/sit-a-long/with-jundo-and-taigu/archives/2011/05/whattsa-whosa-bodhisattva---kshitigarbha-jizo.html

Jizo has also, in centuries past in Japan, been used by the Zen equivalent of "tent show faith healers" (you can read a little about that from about page 104 here) ...

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=EPXEoMtND24C&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=other+side+of+zen+books&source=bl&ots=uJpbBotXBY&sig=fhtIfhMrQfgcPwzhNNa6Z9XGS1s&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEcQ6AEwB2oVChMIi4D9laC-yAIVxSymCh2XMwVZ#v=snippet&q=%22miraculous%20powers%20of%20jizo%20to%20cure%22&f=false

I know the Ksitigarbha Sutra was very much cherished in China for the role of Jizo as a kind of helpful saint (to find the equivalent in Christian thought), and it was introduced into Japan centuries before Zen was introduced to Japan ...

大乘大集地藏十輪経
Mahāyāna Great Collection Sūtra
Ten Cakras of Ksitigarbha Sūtra
Jp. = Daijō Daijū Jizō Jūrin-Kyō

Translated into Chinese in the mid-7th century by the Chinese monk Hsuan-tsang (Xuanzang) 玄奘, known as Genjō 玄奘 in Japan. The Sanskrit text is no longer extant. The sūtra’s shortened title is 地藏十輪経, Ten Cakras of Ksitigarbha. It was copied by the Japanese around +738-739 (Nara period). ... Jizō worship in China can be traced back to these two sūtra, which introduced Jizō as a savior who would remain on earth between the absence of Shaka Nyorai (Historical Buddha) and the future coming of Miroku (Skt. = Maitreya). Jizo would function most effectively during the Mappō (末法) period, the period of degenerate law, when Buddhist faith and practice were at all time lows. The sūtra also says Jizō appears from the south, possesses miraculous powers, and is able to assume various forms, including that of a Buddhist priest, and even that of the Judge of Hell, known in Sanskrit as Yama-rāja (Lord of Death), in Chinese as Yanmo Wang 閻魔王, and in Japanese as Emma-ō 閻魔王. This early association between Jizō and the underworld foreshadows Jizō’s future role in China and Japan as the savior “par excellence” of those who fall to hell.
http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/jizo-texts.html

So, I assume that it was always popular, although more for Jizo's qualities as a rescuer of folks in trouble, than for specifically Zen Buddhist practice. For Dogen, his successors and Jizo, please read a bit from page 99 to 101 here ...

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=uEha2IZzgVsC&pg=PA100&lpg=PA100&dq=dogen+jizo&source=bl&ots=aQG0rHdpVM&sig=Ja2PWw0DtjthPnEBrdwMBQTDXTk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAGoVChMI-_3ss6W-yAIVBxymCh1BGgG2#v=snippet&q=%22earth%20motif%20appears%20in%20the%20figure%20of%20jizo%22&f=false

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Kaishin]

Thank you for the additional info, Jundo!!!