Fear

[disastermouse]

Re: Fear

I appreciate the replies, but the fear that I was talking about transcends normal fear; it is a fear that questions our very existence, the fear of discovering emptiness and no-self. Being afraid of something like flying is a more normal fear; I'm talking about the ultimate existential fear that is probably the hardest to overcome. I'm not sure it's a fear we actually think about or realize that we have, but my hypothesis is that this fear, that we cannot put into words or even thought, pervades our minds, especially when sitting and getting closer to the Truth.

Another name for Dukkha? I think that maybe the path doesn't even start until you stop running from the abject terror of non-being and look at it square.

Odd that you describe Kensho as feeling as though the ground has disappeared.

[Ryumon]

Re: Fear

Jundo,

Yes, that's closer to what I'm thinking. The fear of the self that it won't be in charge any more, perhaps.

And, no, I don't feel that the kensho experiences I have had are The Truth; they are, in my mind, a mere glimpse of The Truth from afar. And, as you say, just A Mere Truth.

[Myoku]

Re: Fear

I can relate to what Kirk expresses,
though I am not sure we mean the "same thing"; I mean, when you sit and over time of weeks, month
and more you see falling apart all what you previously believed is "the truth", what you believed "you
are", when all that vanishes... well at some point there was a great fear appearing in me, kind of "what
after all remains so that I can rely on it". Maybe something like is.
_()_
Peter

[Seiryu]

Re: Fear

I can relate to what Kirk expresses,
though I am not sure we mean the "same thing"; I mean, when you sit and over time of weeks, month
and more you see falling apart all what you previously believed is "the truth", what you believed "you
are", when all that vanishes... well at some point there was a great fear appearing in me, kind of "what
after all remains so that I can rely on it". Maybe something like is.
_()_
Peter

I can relate as well. This is a question that really gets to me. When we sit, all sorts of crap just start to fall away, everything that we thought was us, begin to come apart, so it can become scary. When everything goes, what will be left of me?

Questions such as this begin to arrive.

But maybe nothing happens at all, maybe it is like we are living in a dark room and what happens is the light comes on. All is exactly the same except now we can see it.

Gassho

Seiryu

[Hoyu]

Re: Fear

Seiryu wrote:
But maybe nothing happens at all, maybe it is like we are living in a dark room and what happens is the light comes on. All is exactly the same except now we can see it.

Beautifully put Seiryu!

Hi All,
I personally haven't had anything that strikes me as odd during any of my sittings.....yet. Well besides occasionally falling asleep :shock: ops:
My wife on the other hand has. Shortly after her father died(before we met) she was depressed and searching. She came to meditation as an aide to her slump. She describes something she kept experiencing which ultimately led to her abandoning meditation altogether. She said every time she would meditate she would feel like she was falling! Always falling. It was so terrifying to her that she couldn't bring herself to continue any longer.

Gassho,
John

[will]

Re: Fear

Ok guys. i think we can "sit with that". Lots of stuff comes up. just let it come up, but don't lose your Zazen.

Here is a tip (seriously though, I'm not super Zen guy), just sit with it. No matter what comes up sit with it, but also notice your posture whether you are tense etc.., and then just release that. Make sure your posture is not too tight, but not too loose. Zazen balances bodymind. That means all of the falling, and the fear and so on are just arising and fallinig away moment after moment. however, Zazen is right here. Balanced and open, when we let Zazen be Zazen.

though this is hard sometimes because we feel we are faced with tough decision such as job etc.. I feel great reluctance towards many things, but Zazen will still be Zazen. All I need do is sit, and those things that I am faced with will either be there or disappear. Much to learn/unlearn.

Gassho

Will

[Rich]

Re: Fear

Just some quick thoughts about fear - real fear brings a heightened sense of awareness and time seems to slow down. Everything else we call fear is just our bad habits of negative thinking, anxiety etc. etc. Sitting with this, it usually just goes away. If it comes back sit with it some more. Nothing to fear but fear itself is true. Fear of the void, emptiness, nonself, dying, losing all your stuff etc. is just a big dream. Nothingness is not something to fear, its something to embrace and enjoy..

[Jundo]

Re: Fear

Jundo,

Yes, that's closer to what I'm thinking. The fear of the self that it won't be in charge any more, perhaps.

And, no, I don't feel that the kensho experiences I have had are The Truth; they are, in my mind, a mere glimpse of The Truth from afar. And, as you say, just A Mere Truth.

Yes, I cannot emphasize how "ordinary" life becomes through this practice, and how "nothing special" is that which is experienced and discovered. However, that "ordinary" is now seen as oh so special, anything but "ordinary" at all!

Let me explain.

Sometimes we talk about these things as the "relative and the absolute" dancing as "Five Ranks", or "nirvana is just samsara", or "mountains are mountains, mountains are not mountains, mountains are mountains again", or "returning to the marketplace" ... or the little self dropped away, only to find itself again ... or Jundo's patented "even as" (e.g., "having goals even as we drop all goals") ... many images to try to convey this. However, it is really not so complicated, really not 'rocket science':

First (we can say "in our ignorant state"), we encounter the ordinary day to day world (and the people in it, our own life, our own self) with delusion ... very divided, full of judgments and frictions, categories of this and that, memories and regrets, fears for the future, aversions and attractions, loves, hates, anger, greed etc. etc. Many "should be's" and "if only would be's" in life. We are driven by feelings of lack, imperfection, "something's wrong or missing." This is the ignorant "little self" at work.

Next, we sit Zazen and "put that little self out of work". In Shikantaza (other forms of Zazen and meditation almost all seek for this too in one way or another) we stop that "little self" and pull out its batteries! So, in Shikantaza "just sitting" we "open the hand of thought and emotions" and let go these divisions, judgments, frictions, this and that, memories, regrets, fears for the future, aversions, attractions, loves and hates, anger, greed etc. etc, the "should be's" and "if only would be's", feelings of lack, imperfection, "something wrong, something missing" ... This is "mountains are not mountains".

What results is not a "blank", not a nihilistic "nothing" ... but One Beyond Oneness, Harmony, Wholeness. Words simply fail (as all the old Zen folks say 8) ).

Now, there is actually a kind of sliding scale for this experience of "dropping the self" ... and, like the sea, such is encountered in varying "depthless depths" and shadings. Sometimes, there is a "softening" of the self and its "trickster ways" ... and we become less judgmental, friction eases, regrets and fears release, aversions and attractions are much less binding, anger's flames settle down, greed calms etc etc. Most of us can encounter this to one degree or another almost any day we sit Zazen.

At other times, the self may so totally fall away ... body-mind fully dropped away ... much as being on the peak of a mountain, clouds fully clearing, seeing and being seen in all the ten directions up and down ... and the mountain drops away too. One is a bell hanging in space, ting-a-ling.

Now, in many forms of meditation, and even in some corners of the Zen world, this "bell space" is considered "TRUTH" while the rest of this "ordinary" world is A LIE of delusion. Our Soto Zen world, however, tends not to say so quite like that. In some corners of the "Eastern" meditating or Zazen world, this "mountain drops away" Kensho or such (there are many depths and shades even there) is considered "The Great Goal". Our Soto Zen world, however, considers it perhaps an enlightening and useful "point of reference" ... but really just a nice place to visit, wouldn't want to (and couldn't) live there. Yawn, buy a postcard, move on.

Why?

Because we must rise up from the Zafu, return to the marketplace, get on with life's bus trip ...

HOWEVER, now we learn to encounter the ordinary day to day world (and the people in it, our own life, our own self) WHILE LESS A PRISONER OF OUR LITTLE SELF or, better said, as a little self while simultaneously seeing through, and being less a victim of, the little self's trickster ways! We are living amid delusion but better able to recognize delusion ... in a world of divisions yet also dropping divisions, lightly making judgments even as there are no judgments, bumping into things while knowing there is nothing to bump into too, living with life's required categories of this and that ... also seeing through "this and that", remembering the past and anticipating the future while simultaneously tasting the timeless, lightly holding aversions and attractions while at total peace with "just what is", not such a prisoner of anger or greed in this angry and greedy world. We may still have "should be's" about life, but now know that all is as it is and should be too. Even when there is something that lacks that requires our hard work to fill we also taste "no lack", and though there are imperfections that we strive to fix ... there is a certain Wholeness and Perfection which sweeps in all small human judgments of "something to fix". All at once.

Something like that. The little self is there ... and not ... at once. This "ordinary, nothing special" life is now seen more for the "anything but ordinary" magical miracle it truly is. There are buddhas sitting on the humdrum tips of our shoelaces, as every weed and flower and blade of grass. This is "mountains are mountains again".

For that reason, in my view, the first kind of Zazen practice is much much much more useful and enlightening than the ringing-a-dinging of "bell space". Learning the constant arriving of each step of the hike is most important, not merely appreciating one or two fantastic scenes encountered along the way. Every step-by-step of the mountain walk is a total arriving, and "practice" consists not in resting in any one spot, but in learning to rest in all the rest. Simply sitting and making the little self translucent is most vital ... learning to encounter a "softening" of the self and its "trickster ways" ... judgments not rigidly clutched, frictions eased, regrets and fears put aside, aversions and attractions allowed to be at rest, anger's flames settling, greed calming etc etc. ...

ALL THIS LETS US RETURN TO THIS LIFE, YET BE FREE IN THIS LIFE TOO. We now live in a world of delusion, yet not as prisoners of delusion. This life-self-world may be as a dream, but it is a dream to make what we will.

Something like that.

Gassho, J

[Taigu]

Re: Fear

That's why I love the practice of haiku, not as a way to leave a trace behind, get fame and acknowlegement as a haiku writer (cannot care less) but simply as a way to wake up to the wonder of all this. The doing of the haiku is its own goal, the process is what matters, not the end result. the ordinary is met as a truly wonderful gift.

What we truly cultivate in Zen practice is the art of movement: we never stay on a particular spot, get caught by a scenery, bell in space we turn into tramac-like stuff; sticky and deluded , we instantly allow the freedom of vast blue sky. And yet we don't stay there.
And what we realize through all these subtle and multiple changes is the complete absence of self. Yet, how enjoyable it is to display the all range of the rainbow hues and shades! The whole spectrum of colors is welcome, we don't escape difficulty or chase ease and happiness. Moon-faced Buddha, sun-faced Buddha, whatever.

Plum blossoms all along, tears and laughs, one face.


gassho



Taigu

[ghop]

Re: Fear

What I've learned so far...

Fear is just another thought...

Come back to this...to this...to this...

gassho
Greg

[disastermouse]

Re: Fear

What I've learned so far...

Fear is just another thought...

Come back to this...to this...to this...

gassho
Greg

I think Jundo's words above may warrant re-reading - even with all the words, it's a pretty succinct explanation of some important points. IMHO.

Regarding Kensho, it is nothing more or less than the direct experience of some of the more difficult to understand aspects of the Buddha's teachings such as no-self, emptiness, etc. You can't aim at it or make it a goal of practice (not because it's bad, but I think it just doesn't work), but nonetheless, it imparts a direct understanding of important concepts.

Chet