May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

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  • Stephanie

    #31
    Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

    I really appreciate this thread and the posts on Facebook I've encountered by folks who offer concerns about the mass reaction to Osama bin Laden's death. I too find no cause for celebration. I don't know of any intelligence that bin Laden was planning anything that posed a current threat. This seemed to be a plain revenge killing. With no respect for American due process of law.

    I mean, it sounds like the killing was in self-defense, possibly, but it's being described in the media as the Navy SEALs riding in and executing the outlaw. And it's to be expected that the usual yahoos will cheer and high five, but this celebratory mood has extended even as far as NPR, which was presenting this story as "justice having been carried out." What kind of justice? Since when does America condone vigilante justice? Our justice system may be imperfect, but it is better than gunfights and executions.

    The kind of society that kind of "justice" creates is not the kind of society in which the things I value flourish. Some Americans fantasize about returning to a cowboy kind of culture where everyone walks around with guns strapped to their sides. I find this absurd, childish, as everyone likes to imagine they are John Wayne, the quickest draw who would always crush all enemies. But the truth is most people would lose these street battles. And who would the winners be? Might and agility are not always paired with wisdom and morality, often the most ruthless, the "winners" are less sensitive and moral. So we could have a world where a few thugs rise to the top and rule over others, as opposed to a world in which society allows people of varied talents to survive and flourish together, and make art and culture and peace.

    I am really starting to feel disgusted by the society I live in. Part of me wants to see these blind Tea Party fools get what they want, a smaller government with less restrictions on big corporations, no programs for the poor or the elderly who have contributed their lives to society, hicks strapped with guns killing each other. Move to some more civilized place and watch them all kill each other. I'm not proud of that, I don't think that is a good way to think, but sometimes I despair in seeing how fully the three poisons have taken hold of this society. I just don't know what to do when people claim it's patriotic to fight against programs for the poor and to wish to return to times when might and brutality were the ruling forces. Because of their selfish romanticized dream that they could be the big dog.

    I see this jubilation over bin Laden's death as a product of this mindset. Not only do I think that killing should never be celebrated, even when it is necessary, I think it's twisted to call it "justice." I do believe in the justice that happens when people are brought to trial, when there is a chance to review and examine and question and maybe understand what happened, and why. All that happened, was killing.

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    • Seishin the Elder
      Member
      • Oct 2009
      • 521

      #32
      Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

      There is no place in my heart or head for joy and celebration over the ambush killing of Osama Bin Laden; and,...I also find it difficult to find sorrow over his passing.. We see him darkened by Mara, flawed in his thinking and expression of his goals. We are saddened by his errors, but not overcome by them. Neither then am I overcome one way or another by his death. We all shall die. Some of us shall certainly die as we live, some "by the sword" as witnessed today. Mara is not done with us. We need to maintain a balanced heart and mind and body so as to not succumb to any extreme of joy, fear, hate or even love.

      Gassho,

      Seishin Kyrill

      Comment

      • Hoyu
        Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 2020

        #33
        Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

        Risho wrote:
        (which is why I still practice; it's easier to point fingers than to point it inwards).
        How true. We must remember that when we point the finger at someone else 3 of our own fingers are literally pointing at ourselves! Try it and see for yourself :wink:

        Gassho,
        John
        Ho (Dharma)
        Yu (Hot Water)

        Comment

        • Risho
          Member
          • May 2010
          • 3178

          #34
          Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

          Originally posted by anista
          Originally posted by Risho
          I'm glad he was brought to justice, personally. It may be ok from an absolute perspective to say "oh death and destruction... waaa" but that is very idealistic. I hope we can all live together peacefully one day too but, until that time, we cannot allow despots and destructive people to reign free. That's just the bottom line.
          I think this is very important, but also part of the problem. You cannot allow destructive people to reign free, but ... Isn't that what they are saying about you? Both sides here are defending themselves from aggression from the other part. See, this is the karmic seed of a never-ending spiral of war and hate.

          There are no easy answers, but to sit back and do nothing in the face of an evil is probably the most heinous things one can do.
          Are they evil, and you good? Maybe both are evil? Or good? Again, if no one sits back, when will it end, except by mutual destruction?

          That sums up my view on this.

          (Sorry for using your post to explain my view, Risho. I'm sorry if it came out too personal, that was not my intention).
          No apologies man, that's why we communicate. I understand your points. I don't know if "they" are evil or how they view me or this culture. I do know that a group of radical muslims attacked and killed civilians of this (and other countries), and they need to be brought to justice. I'm not certain, and I'm not certain that it matters, if they are good or evil. I mean everyone is pretty much a mix of both, but action needs to be taken to prevent those atrocities from happening again. Now, that group may think we're heathens or infidels, but they (and I'm talking about radicals here) are not interested in talking. They aren't interested in liking us, and they most certainly aren't interested in reasoning. They will kill for their beliefs, for what they think their god is telling them. They will literally strap explosives and kill themselves and others for what they believe. I don't know, but that sort of backward thinking cannot be tolerated. Not because it is a belief but because those beliefs directly lead to actions that destroy life. That needs to be stopped.
          Email: risho.treeleaf@gmail.com

          Comment

          • Zen_Fire
            Member
            • Feb 2011
            • 76

            #35
            Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

            As before and always, with Bin Laden death or not, Existence goes on. We are not the center of the Universe.
            [b:3vp7c85i]"Let no one be slow to seek wisdom when he is young nor weary in the search of it when he has grown old. For no age is too early or too late for the health of the soul".[/b:3vp7c85i] - Epicurus

            Comment

            • nadia_estm
              Member
              • Jul 2010
              • 38

              #36
              Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

              I also believe we must take a stance against all kinds of violence. If you kill, murder someone...why must someone not kill you?. There is no justification for killing when it can be prevented (meaning maybe authentic self defense). If you rejoice in Osama´s death, why should his followers not rejoice yours....and then who will ever stop?
              metta to all

              Comment

              • JohnsonCM
                Member
                • Jan 2010
                • 549

                #37
                Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

                I have to say that I'm torn on this one. I am a US citizen, and a former United States Marine. I vividly recall being woken up by the duty officer in the middle of the night on Okinawa, as the Major called a meeting to brief us on the attacks that had just happened back in the States.

                My initial thought was that I felt sorry that any loss of life was necessary, and that I felt pity that Bin Laden was the victim of whatever delusions and demons that haunted him and hounded him into becoming an extension of hatred. I also felt sorry for the fact that his chosen religion told him that God was cool with killing in the name of his faith. However, there was also a rather large part that said, "I wish no one had to get shot in the head, but if it had to be someone........."
                Gassho,
                "Heitetsu"
                Christopher
                Sat today

                Comment

                • Hans
                  Member
                  • Mar 2007
                  • 1853

                  #38
                  Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

                  Hello everyone,

                  after having read through another two dozen posts or so, I feel the need to simply repeat my deluded novice opinion once more. Fell free to ignore my voice.

                  Limitless compassion. Period.

                  I will in no way belittle the great suffering that 911 brought upon the people of the USA, I also will not engage in a more detailed criticism of US foreign policy in this forum, but will simply suggest that the list of agressive actions committed and/or supported by the US government in the last 40 years (like many other governments too btw.) makes the 911 death toll look rather unimpressive. Nothing can be an excuse for terrorism, but to forget we are all karmically connected through our deeds in favour of a "we're the good guys" "they're the bad guys" logic is deeply flawed.

                  To walk in the Buddha's footsteps means to transcend narrow definitions of enemy/friend, citizen/non-citizen. We should make the suffering of all sides our own.

                  Situations like these are exactly when Buddhist practice becomes truly Buddhist practice. It's easy to talk about compassion when not facing an enemy, or an enemy's death, sipping tea, sitting on our Yoga mats in a western democracy. The depth of one's practice will shine forth in moments when one faces that which one is attached to (likes/dislikes).

                  Gassho,

                  Hans

                  Comment

                  • Shokai
                    Dharma Transmitted Priest
                    • Mar 2009
                    • 6396

                    #39
                    Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

                    Mongen wrote;
                    Limitless compassion. Period.
                    Thank you Hans
                    合掌,生開
                    gassho, Shokai

                    仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

                    "Open to life in a benevolent way"

                    https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

                    Comment

                    • anista
                      Member
                      • Dec 2009
                      • 262

                      #40
                      Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

                      Originally posted by Risho
                      I do know that a group of radical muslims attacked and killed civilians of this (and other countries), and they need to be brought to justice. I'm not certain, and I'm not certain that it matters, if they are good or evil. I mean everyone is pretty much a mix of both, but action needs to be taken to prevent those atrocities from happening again.
                      Then, would it be alright if action were taken against Bush and Obama, for the atrocities they have been responsible for? This is much like the racial revolts in the U.S. (e.g. the Rodney King incident), where the policemen who started it all, were acquitted. What kind of signal do you think this sends? It is very much the same in the Middle East, where the Arab population see that Americans come to them and commit war crimes, yet nobody punishes them. When they try to fight back (which is I am sure how they see it), all of a sudden they are the bad guys. I am not saying that this is how it objectively is, just that both sides have their versions.

                      Now, that group may think we're heathens or infidels, but they (and I'm talking about radicals here) are not interested in talking. They aren't interested in liking us, and they most certainly aren't interested in reasoning. They will kill for their beliefs, for what they think their god is telling them.
                      Yes, you are correct. But then again, this is exactly how many people in the Arab world (and in Europe for that matter) see the US. You are clearly not interested in talking, nor in reasoning, and you will kill for your beliefs (in the capitalist market for example). How is this different?

                      They will literally strap explosives and kill themselves and others for what they believe. I don't know, but that sort of backward thinking cannot be tolerated. Not because it is a belief but because those beliefs directly lead to actions that destroy life. That needs to be stopped.
                      And once again, I can make the exact same statement about the U.S. This is how a large portion of the world views you. If you should stop them because of what they have done, why aren't they allowed to stop you for what you have done? You may not strap explosives on you, but you fill up B52's and carpet bomb entire cities (with civilians - just check the civilian death counts in Iraq for example). You have the Guantanamo, the Abu Ghraib, the Wikileaks incidents, waterboarding.

                      I'm definitely not saying that Americans are evil, and that all is your fault, but you need to pay attention to what you are doing yourselves. We all are. If you are allowed to go into another country and kill bin Laden, then surely you agree that they should be allowed to go into your country and kill your leaders? You don't have more right to use deadly force than they do. See, they don't attack you because they hate your freedom and your way of life, they attack you because they feel that you have attacked them first. Perhaps you can make the argument that they focus on killing civilians, but with all the reports coming through of how American soldiers also commit atrocities on civilians, in all wars you have been involved in, the same could be said about you. There is no such thing as a just war.

                      Otherwise, that is what I mean, when I say that this is karmic seed which will lead to a downward spiral of war and hate. If you are intent on revenge all the time, nothing will stop.

                      Please don't take this as some anti-american propaganda, for it is nothing of the sort. Often, I'm playing the devil's advocate. Also, I am overgeneralizing which perhaps isn't always so skillful. I am just trying to understand your view, and why there is a difference between the atrocities of one nation and not another. I definitely do not think it is OK to ram airplanes into buildings just because you have done bad things to them. Sometimes I am reminded of my work as a kindergarten teacher, when I see kids fighting in exactly the same way (albeit on a lesser scale). They are always convinced that their reason for hitting the other kid was just and correct and had to be done, but when they get hit back, they start crying and feel it is unfair. It doesn't matter who started it, it's equally wrong to continue the fight. Now make up and be friends!
                      The mind does not know itself; the mind does not see itself
                      The mind that fabricates perceptions is false; the mind without perceptions is nirv??a

                      Comment

                      • JohnsonCM
                        Member
                        • Jan 2010
                        • 549

                        #41
                        Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

                        Anista, I'm not throwing stones here, my house still has some walls of glass, but I think it is worth remembering that if we all just realized our Buddha Natures and acted with compassion towards others, there wouldn't have been all the events that lead up to Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, waterboarding, etc. Not to lay blame on the Muslims. In truth that probably wouldn't have happened either had generations of Muslims not been subjected to the Crusades and French occupation. Which may not have happened had the Pope not prevailed upon the king of France, and he the king of England, that Jerusalem was wealthy. And one could take this line of thought further back, and further back, and further back until the begining, if there were one, of when sentient beings began to value attachment and delusion above compassion and realization.

                        The point is, would it be right to say that we should be brought to justice for the things we have done, as we say others should be? No. No more so than it is for us to say others should be punished for their crimes. It would be right to say that as Bodhisattvas and Buddhas and John Q. Publics, it is our job to embody and live the ideals that put a stop to these types of actions in the first place, and hopefully entice others to do the same.

                        Again, easier said than done. My post above shows that I struggle with this often.
                        Gassho,
                        "Heitetsu"
                        Christopher
                        Sat today

                        Comment

                        • Ankai
                          Novice Priest-in-Training
                          • Nov 2007
                          • 1015

                          #42
                          Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

                          Situations like these are exactly when Buddhist practice becomes truly Buddhist practice. It's easy to talk about compassion when not facing an enemy, or an enemy's death, sipping tea, sitting on our Yoga mats in a western democracy. The depth of one's practice will shine forth in moments when one faces that which one is attached to (likes/dislikes).

                          It may mean my practice is shallow in some peoples' eyes. Fine. I'm just being honest about what I feel. I may have some thoughts about those who're sitting in judgement of people who're feeling as I do. I'd ask simply, "But were you there?" Might be a lot easier from where some here are sitting, I think. But I'm not going to do a happy little dance and pretend I feel compassion. Not for this man; I don't. Not at all. I'm glad he's dead. It's not about "justice" or any other lofty sounding, incense farting nonsense. This man killed my friends. He raped nations. I can neither hear out of my right hear nor walk without a limp for the rest of my life because of that man, and because of him and the direction he led the 21st century into I haven't slept through the night in years. He altered my life in ways ranging from the mundane to the extraordinary, and I'm not going to sit here and pretend I'm a happy little zenster full of compassion and at peace with all. This man is the Destroyer of Worlds, and while I wouldn't celebrate his death, either, the world is a better place with him out of it.
                          Gassho!
                          護道 安海


                          -Godo Ankai

                          I'm still just starting to learn. I'm not a teacher. Please don't take anything I say too seriously. I already take myself too seriously!

                          Comment

                          • Hans
                            Member
                            • Mar 2007
                            • 1853

                            #43
                            Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

                            Hello,

                            just a few lines to clarify what I wrote. I did never ever claim that I personally have mastered the art of limitless compassion, my point is simply that we should identify the limits of our compassion and work towards making that compassion limitless. Metta practise is a wonderful example, one can start with generating loving-kindness and extend it first to those one personally loves, then those one identifies with...and ultimately work right up until extending Metta to Mr. Bin Laden and his family.

                            The examples of individual Tibetan monks leaving prisons after thirty years of abuse and torture with only a bare minimum of hate are a living testament to the possibility of actually developing great amounts of real and tangible compassion in this life and not just as a fancy wish in some psychedelic sutra. It shows us that the practise is real and can be as deep as we will allow it to.

                            I still vividly remember all those truly great cold war propaganda flicks like Top Gun that de-humanised the Russians (whose faces one could never see) to the point where all that counted was to get the girl, wear Ray-Ban sunglasses (which are really stylish btw.) and score "a hit". And still I am working on trying to de-program myself from decades of growing up with this aestheticised "kill the bad guy" stuff.

                            Killing Bin Laden is indeed a victory in the sense that a symptom of a sickness was beaten back. The Dharma, as far as I know or don't know at this early point in my journey as a novice, is not about symptoms, however, it is about uprooting the causes of hate and strife.


                            Gassho,

                            Hans

                            Comment

                            • Dokan
                              Friend of Treeleaf
                              • Dec 2010
                              • 1222

                              #44
                              Re: Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

                              Originally posted by KvonNJ
                              I can neither hear out of my right hear nor walk without a limp for the rest of my life because of that man, and because of him and the direction he led the 21st century into I haven't slept through the night in years.
                              Much metta to you, your friends and even the guys on the other side of the barrel who are experiencing the same physical and emotional pain. I cannot imagine.

                              Many times it is hard to see the majestic forest with our noses pressed against the trees. However, the opposite is also true from the comfort of our sofas.

                              Metta,

                              Shawn
                              We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are.
                              ~Anaïs Nin

                              Comment

                              • Risho
                                Member
                                • May 2010
                                • 3178

                                #45
                                Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

                                Anista,

                                I was thinking about the karmic repercussions after my post. I know what you mean. There have to be repercussions for things but we have to respond in a manner that results in a minimal amount of greed, anger and ignorance. This is definitely a difficult proposition in this case.

                                I would argue that although killing civilians during the Iraq war and killing civilians for a religious war are 2 different things, but it is killing nonetheless and has ramifications that we will deal with for years to come. It's hard to listen to "the other side" when you are killing them.

                                Hans,

                                I can't believe you said that about Top Gun; sure there was a highly questionable volleyball scene, but that movie was great! Ok back to watching A-Team while cuddling with my Ronald Reagan portrait :mrgreen:

                                Risho
                                Email: risho.treeleaf@gmail.com

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