May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

[Seiryu]

Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering.

May all sentient beings have happiness and its causes,
May all sentient beings be free from suffering and its causes.
May all sentient beings never be separated from sorrow-less bliss.
May all sentient beings abide in equanimity, free of bias, attachment and anger.


Gassho

Seiryu

[Kaishin]

Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering.

His end is just another beginning. I can understand the relief and elation felt by many for the death of the man responsible for 9/11. But this is just another new link in the chain of violence.

I don't know if things could be done any differently given the thirst for revenge over so many years, but I think celebrating is short-sighted.

Solemn, not elated,
Matt

[Kyonin]

Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering.

I don't know if things could be done any differently given the thirst for revenge over so many years, but I think celebrating is short-sighted.

Those are exactly my thoughts on this, mate.

[Saijun]

Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering.

Bin Laden is dead, but what does that mean for us? How will we proceed from here? One man dead, but how many more will be killed? What happens now?

Hello friends,

Happy, sad, it is what it is. Violence will only lead to more violence. Anger to more anger.

Why celebrate the death of someone wandering on through greed, anger, ignorance? He was, I am.

Metta to all who have been hurt through his actions, metta to him. May they, and he, be freed of the poisons and achieve awakening. May all beings everywhere be free of suffering and pain.

Metta,

Saijun

[Dosho]

Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

Hi all,

I am an American.

And I am not happy or relieved.

I am sad.

Beacuse so many have died.

And killing brings none of them back.

Justice? Or revenge?

In the end it is all suffering.

If only the death of anyone was felt just as strongly as the many.

Or the one that you love.

If only we could love and not kill our fellow human beings.

If only we could see the death of anyone as the death of a child.

And the dreams their parents had for them.

And the dreams I have for my children.

If only we could stop waiting for someone else to do something.

And we all did something to stop the killing.

Instead of saying, "If only..."

That murderer has been killed.

But another one of our children has died.

So many children have died.

And the dreams of their parents have died.

And I can never be elated that any of them has died.

Because the suffering of one should be the suffering of us all.

Because the suffering of one IS the suffering of us all.

Because so many have died,

I am sad.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Heisoku]

Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

Beautifully put Dosho. Many thanks. As the song goes 'we didn't start the fire', but we do really need to find the way to dampen it. I think you have pointed us there.
Gassho X 3.

[Taylor]

Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

Nothing much to say, after everything that has been said.

I'm saddened at my country's reaction. I'm saddened at the celebration. I have hope to move away from violence in the Middle East. I know this changes nothing. I hope everything comes out ok.

I think we need to work for peace each and every day. All of us. This forum is beautiful, but it is not where we will encounter the hard choices of peace. The choice to object to a celebration, the choice not to beat our chest and say "Goddamn right!". We must make those hard decisions to object, to protest, to move through this world of violence as flagships of peace. Despite how hard it may be. Blessings and Gasshos to all of you.

Taylor

[Taigu]

Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

Dosho...so true...

Bin laden is a child, a husband, a father... he is a terrorist, he is a life giver, a life taker, he is Bin laden, or..is he? Is he what people say he is, what he thinks he is, what his believers make of him?
Now dead?
Killing people who kill...Does this make sense?
Killing people, does this make sense?
Killing, does this make sense?

Killing what? Who?

What makes sense is to kill ( I should say embrace and dissolve) the person I am not.
Not Bin Laden.

What makes sense is to stop these kids from killng themseleves and others. And to stop myself too.

Making a martyr is not going to make things easy.

A corpse in the sea is not getting us anyhere.

More suffering.


Justice- Killing?-Throwing a corpse in the sea?...
Can you really see how much insanity these sentences generate when you-I-everybody put them together?

gassho


Taigu

[Risho]

Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

We can play with semantics and philosophize until we are blue in the face. The truth of the matter is that Bin Laden engaged in an act of war against the US when he orchestrated the deaths of thousands of Americans in 2001. It is also a fact that his death probably doesn't change much; there are still terrorists and still people plotting to destroy the "evil Americans". hahah look at me saying "this is a fact". I know it's just my subjectivity But I don't like the idea of celebration. Revenge doesn't do anything but cause more suffering.

So I'm more in a state of disbelief right now. Death and killing always concern me, leaves me feeling drained. I know there are multiple facets to these things and killing is not good. But turning the other cheek while a man massacres innocents can't occur either, and I will never engage in the epidemic of American hate (sometimes self-hatred that Americans have imposed on themselves when making unrealistic comparisons to other cultures of the world). This country isn't perfect, and the fact of the matter is that the intelligence reports our countries (and world) leaders face must be insane.

I'm glad he was brought to justice, personally. It may be ok from an absolute perspective to say "oh death and destruction... waaa" but that is very idealistic. I hope we can all live together peacefully one day too but, until that time, we cannot allow despots and destructive people to reign free. That's just the bottom line. Remember World War II, when Neville Chamberlain thought that if he submitted to Hitler that all would be well? Nope, didn't work out. At the same time, we need to have a modicum of self-restraint and not cheer in the face of killing. There must be a respect.. that we all are the same. Anista pointed something very important out; any one of us could have been Osama. Or Hitler.. I mean it's very difficult to see that in myself.

I think Jundo sensei articulated what I'm trying to say, "What about the taking of his life in this case? The use of force, even the taking of life may be needed (in my view, maybe the view of the great majority of Buddhist teachers -- though not all -- commenting on the matter these days) in some extreme cases in order to save innocent lives. This may be such a case. However, we should reflect and repent on having the need to do so nonetheless. Also, we should know that our actions may themselves cause ripples ... that all violence, even "justified" violence, begets violence. Even if resorted too as a way to save life, the taking of a life should be as a last resort ... after all other solutions have been tried, including turning the other cheek. (That is just my view)"

Sometimes force must be met with force. We live in a world where there is evil and destruction, where there is also good. Sometimes shit happens. As Dogen said, "Although flowers loved whither and while weeds are hated flourish..." In any case, we need to accept where we are now but that doesn't mean to do nothing. Sometimes peaceful words are not enough.

If I've discovered one thing through practice, it's that I don't like killing, but I've also come to realize that nothing is ever black and white. Living in the real world, instead of living through our ideals is a very messy proposition. There are no easy answers, but to sit back and do nothing in the face of an evil is probably the most heinous things one can do (like we did waiting to help the europeans in WWII until we got attacked).

But all we can do is control our actions and face our fears and anger, like Taigu sensei said, "What makes sense is to stop these kids from killng themseleves and others. And to stop myself too."

Things like this cause me to ramble (as evidenced by this post. lol), but they also cause me to reflect on being human and our history. When I think of greed, anger and ignorance, I tend to sometimes avoid the little things I do (which is why I still practice; it's easier to point fingers than to point it inwards). But I think of Hitler. You know it amazes me that that didn't happen that long ago. I mean it was only a few years ago. It scares me even more that an entire society followed him. Think about that!

That's something that we have here in this country; even if we don't always live up to them, we have some very, very good values. You know I didn't vote for Obama, but I really have respect for him. He pronounces Pakistan correctly. He makes an effort to show that we are are a country that respects values (or tries to) for all human beings, despite race. I mean we are in a very dangerous time right now. There is civil unrest in this country; if it's not the Muslims, it's the illegal immigrants or it's the evil socialists or some group.

This reminds me a lot of pre-WWII Germany. Inflation is high, unemployment is high. People are uneasy, and they want answers... looking for someone to blame. I respect that Obama tries to preserve that semblance of reason even though people are mad that he sticks up for Muslim rights or thinks that Illegal Immigrants are not the enemy; they are human too.

Anyway, I'm done rambling. lol

[Ankai]

Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

I must honestly admit that I can't muster up a shred of honest compassion or even goodwill for Osama Bin Laden or any of his supporters, I cannot pretend otherwise, and I'm honestly glad he's dead. I saw what that man created. I handled the bodies, smelled the death, walked through the muck and filth and haven't slept through the night since. For them, the victims, the innocent, the still missing and never to return, infinite compassion and love. But for that man I can't even pretend. Whatever that makes me, it makes me.

[Hogo]

Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

But for that man I can't even pretend. Whatever that makes me, it makes me.

I suspect it makes you perfectly human, I don't think anyone has a right to ask more.
Just my humble opinion, I can not imagine the reality of what was experianced there.
Gassho ~D.

[anista]

May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

I'm glad he was brought to justice, personally. It may be ok from an absolute perspective to say "oh death and destruction... waaa" but that is very idealistic. I hope we can all live together peacefully one day too but, until that time, we cannot allow despots and destructive people to reign free. That's just the bottom line.

I think this is very important, but also part of the problem. You cannot allow destructive people to reign free, but ... Isn't that what they are saying about you? Both sides here are defending themselves from aggression from the other part. See, this is the karmic seed of a never-ending spiral of war and hate.

There are no easy answers, but to sit back and do nothing in the face of an evil is probably the most heinous things one can do.

Are they evil, and you good? Maybe both are evil? Or good? Again, if no one sits back, when will it end, except by mutual destruction?

That sums up my view on this.

(Sorry for using your post to explain my view, Risho. I'm sorry if it came out too personal, that was not my intention).

[ghop]

Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

Something is missing
Osama is dead
but I don't feel like justice
has been served
Osama Bin Laden
is dead
but I'm not proud
to be an American
at least not today
there might have been another way
to end the suffering
of those who lost life and love in the twin towers
but hatred never puts an end to hatred
we murdered a murderer
we murdered a murderer
we murdered a murderer
keep saying it until you hear it
really hear it
has our hatred ended one war
or started a new one?


gassho
Greg

[Ekai]

Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

This is actually a difficult situation to view. From the idealistic Buddhist perspective, we say that is wrong to use violence with violence and it is wrong to be happy that he is dead. But from the perspective of a soldier that has seen Laden's violence firsthand or from someone that lost their loved one in the World Trade Center, I think it would be hard to keep that idealistic view.

It is unfortunate all the way around that violence occurs in this world and that people have to suffer as a result. One thing we can do is to keep letting go of any violence within ourselves and be compassion towards others. May all beings be happy and free from suffering.

Thanks,
Jodi

[anista]

Re: May all beings be happy and free from suffering (Osama)

This is actually a difficult situation to view. From the idealistic Buddhist perspective, we say that is wrong to use violence with violence and it is wrong to be happy that he is dead. But from the perspective of a soldier that has seen Laden's violence firsthand or from someone that lost their loved one in the World Trade Center, I think it would be hard to keep that idealistic view.

With all due respect, and in my imperfect opinion, if you see this Buddhist perspective as idealistic, I think you are missing a great deal of what Buddhism can teach us. If you live the buddhadharma through and through, idealism turns to realism. It is the only way we can see it. That is the strength of the buddhadharma. Reality pervades everything. Saying that it is wrong to use violence to stop violence is therefore not idealistic, but realistic, because you can actually see vip?ka folding out in front of you. Utter realism! Sheer beauty!

However, I do understand that this realistic view is hard to keep when you are the one who has lost a loved one.

May all be free of their afflictions.