Zen is not in the Helping Profession

[Stephanie]

Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

I'm not trying to say I think Brad is evil or hopelessly corrupt, or anything like that. I get an opposite impression, that he is overall a meek and gentle person. But I do think the ego is wily, and that Brad's relationship with someone who came into his life because he was leading a Zen group -- I am not basing this on some backroom gossip, but the book he wrote and published -- is a factor in his arguing the case he does.

My point was not to bash on Brad. I don't think Brad is better or worse than me or much anyone else. He just is a source point of discussion of things that many, if not all of us do. I think Brad's self-deception is really apparent in the things he says, perhaps only because he tries so hard to be honest and sincere. Which is why I find his posts to provide rich material for response and rebuttal. But again... my point isn't to pick apart Brad. Or to point to him as a bad egg in a carton full of good eggs. That's not how I see it.

So perhaps it would help if instead of talking about Brad, I say in my own experience it is easy to neglect boundaries, propriety, and decorum in relationships with others. Emotions are wondrous and profound and inspire us to do many things, good and bad. I have yet to see evidence that any amount of Zen training or kenshos or plaudits from the community has ever caused someone to transcend the powerful impetus of emotional energy, whether pain or desire. Sure, folks who have been practicing a long time might succumb less often, but every Zen teacher and student I've met has had buttons that can still be pushed. My emotions, and what they inspire me to do and to say, continue to surprise me.

So I think it's good to have training as to the causes that can lead to boundary violation or unhealthy power dynamics in relationships, and how to address these and prevent impropriety from occurring. Because I don't think this is a case of "bad eggs," I think this is a matter of our nature as human beings. And to have some form of accountability and community is to offer guards against the seduction of power to both the person holding the power and the person not holding it.

[Ankai]

Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

It's more than just semantics, Karl; it's behavioral. It's about a form of action. There's lots of levels to helping, and helping people to help themselves is a higher level. How's this: There's chocolate and then there's double fudge chocolate. The difference between the two is not semantic, right. Same idea applied in a different way.

Yes, there's a difference. But here, Brad's got himself a nice package of double fudge chocolate, and claiming he doesn't eat chocolate.

[Rich]

Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

The fact that Brad refuses to get into a dynamic of teacher to sudent relationship is presumably something he has to work on.


Taigu

And the teacher/student relationship has been at the core of Buddhism since some fellows started following the Buddha after his enlightenment.

I think if Brad ever creates or finds a supportive practice community he may change his view on students. In todays world most transmitted teachers must support themselves whereas in Buddhas day the society supported teachers and even students (MONKS).

[murasaki]

Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

Call me strange or naive...but the moment sexual energy and enters any kind of teacher-student relationship, all the "allure" and "mysticism" completely goes away for me and I feel disillusioned and imposed upon. I don't think there can be any learning without the crisp white ramie of platonicism...which holds the real "allure" for me.

I know you could probably figure out a slew of personal issues with me just from that above statement, but don't waste your time, I've got other people doing that

gassho
Julia

[Saijun]

Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

Call me strange or naive...but the moment sexual energy and enters any kind of teacher-student relationship, all the "allure" and "mysticism" completely goes away for me and I feel disillusioned and imposed upon. I don't think there can be any learning without the crisp white ramie of platonicism...which holds the real "allure" for me.

I know you could probably figure out a slew of personal issues with me just from that above statement, but don't waste your time, I've got other people doing that

gassho
Julia

Hello Julia,

When I was practicing in the Thai tradition, there was a fellow I met at Wat Metta who was, as I recall, a Brahmin priest of some sort. He related to me that while he was practicing on his mountain-top as a hermit, a young girl came seeking answers, and they wound up married for (again, as I remember) 30-odd years.

I don't mean this to imply that I'm in favor of physically intimate relationships between teachers and students (far from it!), but perhaps things can grow and develop, and a system like the one at SFZC could work; a relationship would be accepted if the student-teacher relationship is dissolved for some time prior.

That having been said, I do see your point if your teacher begins to make unwanted advances. Not a good environment at all!

Metta,

Saijun

[Jundo]

Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

and a system like the one at SFZC could work; a relationship would be accepted if the student-teacher relationship is dissolved for some time prior.

Just for point of reference, our 'STATEMENT OF ETHICAL PRINCIPLES AND PROCEDURES' here at Treeleaf are based on recommendations of the SZBA and echo the rules developed at other Zen Sangha. They state in part:

Student/teacher relationships should be based on mutual respect, compassion, and kindness. We acknowledge the inequality inherent in such a relationship and the power issues involved. We specifically acknowledge the great harm, both psychological and spiritual, that results from teachers becoming sexually involved with their students, both for the teacher and student involved and for the community as a whole. We, therefore, consider it unethical for a teacher to engage in sexual behavior with her or his student, even if with the consent of the adult parties involved, if a student-teacher relationship has existed at any recent time between the parties (deemed to be within a period of 6 months).

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2818

Yes, even given our primarily "online" format, it is possible for such things to happen here. We do have people meeting, and "under a roof" sitting groups too.

Why the "6 months"? Well, I think that was developed (not original to us ... some groups have 6 months, some a longer period, some a total ban) because, truly, sometimes one cannot stand in the way of love. Our modern Zen clergy are not celibate but, like Protestant ministers, can engage in healthy relationships, love and marriage. If there is a long cooling off period, the parties have time to reflect and be apart, and the feelings are still there despite time and a bit of distance ... the teacher-student relationship is given time to be replaced ... yet peoples' hearts still call to each other ... well, perhaps, we should not stand in the way.

Gassho, J

[chicanobudista]

Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

Another perspective

http://monkeymindonline.blogspot.com/20 ... or-of.html

A Couple of Words in Favor of Professionalizing Zen Teachers"

Now, I've run across one or two assertions about the American Zen Teachers Association as trying to become such a thing. Obviously these are assertions from people who have never attended AZTA meetings. As one who has, I can tell anyone interested, it is a very loose gathering, with no officers and no dues, and limited interests beyond being a peer support group. It has a sole committee, a membership committee which with the consent of the larger gathering defines who may be a member of the body. Which has consequences for people who see it simply as the largest gathering of Zen teachers. But it also publicly acknowledges there are many legitimate teachers not affiliated. Possibly, I would add, the majority of the sum total of legitimate Zen teachers in the West.

This is not a professional organization.

Would that it were...

[Risho]

Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

I do respect a lot of what Brad says. Sure in his books, sometimes I feel like he comes off like he wishes he were a punk rocker still, and I'm not certain how authentic his rebelliousness is. But I can only go on what I read. I don't know him, and a lot of that is fluff to me, so it is not to me to judge who he is as a person. Hell I portray an image of myself to the world that only partially accurate sometimes. I do know that when he writes about Zen he does so very lucidly, and I've learned a lot from his books and perspective on Buddhism.

That being said, it's hard to critique a blog post. I mean it's not like a dialogue. I really wish I could sit down with him and ask him what he means by student. He admits he was Nishijima Roshi's student, so my guess is that maybe he means that he doesn't want disciples or students with the attitudes that set him (as their teacher) above themselves. He writes about that quite a lot about how he even asked Nishijima questions in an effort to give up his own authority or responsibility. Perhaps, this is just another perspective or way of expressing that idea. We are responsible for ourselves, or we need to learn to help ourselves as others have posted. I don't know, it's certainly weird that he doesn't consider himself a teacher considering that he's written 4 books and has a regular blog.

Gassho,

Risho

[Nenka]

Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

I don't know. He doesn't want students, he wants to work on himself, I still say that's fine, even if he has a very abrasive way of expressing it. Metta to him.

Gassho,

Jennifer

Also--thanks, Erik, for posting that link.

[Jundo]

Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

Hi Guys,

ANOTHER REQUEST FROM JUNDO:

I will plead "Right Speech" again, and I have been tempted to close the topic or even erase it ... the first time at Treeleaf I would have done it. It is not that I think anyone is being intentionally mean here, but I would like to bring up a couple of Precepts ...

PRECEPTS VIII - To Refrain from Discussing Faults of Others.

My teacher, Nishijima, said:

This is a precept pointing out that we should not be too critical or self-righteous when our Buddhist brothers and sisters, struggling as best they can to engage in Buddhist practice through the activities of their daily lives, stumble or fall off the path. In its wider meaning, it means to seek to avoid speaking of the faults of anyone in a way not helpful to that person, or in a way meant simply to praise oneself by comparison.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3135

PRECEPTS IX - To Refrain from Self-Praise & Judging Others

Nishijima says:

‘Do not praise yourself or berate others.’ We should not praise ourselves, nor speak ill of others. We should be humble regarding ourselves, forgiving and not overly judgmental in our outlook toward other human beings. Although it seems a simple precept, I believe that it is one of the deepest in significance and import.

Now, whether others engage in this Precept or not is ALSO not something we should talk about.

Let me note that, further, I think it fine to make some general, constructive criticism (or even really -strong- criticism) as Brad makes of Genpo, and as I have too about Genpo, because of the continued, ongoing impact of his behavior on the wider Sangha (same with some like Eido Shimano). HOWEVER, there is a fine line from that to just discussing the human faults and failings of others, our goodness in comparison, and it is a hard line to avoid stepping over. Maybe we should stop now.

Perhaps some folks might even consider rewriting some of their own postings to avoid that?

Gassho, Jundo

[Saijun]

Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

Hello friends,

I'd like to apologize for the turn this post has taken. I meant it more as a place to discuss the establishment of a Zen "establishment" in the west. I apologize if I was in any way interpreted being critical of Brad.

Metta,

Saijun

[Stephanie]

Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

I feel like the criticisms being aired here are worthy of being aired, because these are issues that are instructive to all, but I also respect Jundo's desire not to sanction Brad-bashing here. Gassho Jundo, I respect and admire your self-reflection and restraint on this matter.

[Dosho]

Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

Jundo,

Thank you for your teaching.

I did consider rewriting some of what I wrote about Brad, but decided against it since I would rather leave what I said as a lesson to myself on how I would like to act or not act as the case may be. To say I shouldn't have said this or that would be just be covering over my mistake instead of learning from it. What is done is done. I have spent most of my life regretting things I have said, many of them not in need of regret or apology. So, while I don't think I must apologize, I will choose to do so.

It was not my place to tell Brad to "get over himself" or to analzyze the events of his childhood and how they may or may not affect him as an adult. It was not wise to judge the choices he has made, the things he has said, or as I stated in my second post to have a general dislike of a person for no reason. Overall, my purpose in both posts was met in analyzing his arguments and disputing them with facts or opinion, but in the end I digressed into a character assasination that was unwarranted and not in line with the precepts I have vowed to live by in my daily life.

For all this and all my other failings that negatively impact others, I sincerely apologize. My ego attempted to inflate itself by deflating Brad's ego, which was careless and pointless. I won't say that it will never happen again because it undoubtedly will, but hopefully not where Brad is concerned. I will endeavor to do better in the future generally and specifically in the way that I regard Brad and his teachings. I have stumbled, but will get up and continue making mistakes and learning from them. I will not live my life trying NOT to make mistakes but will try to live as I believe I should...with mistakes being the inevitable outcome...as I seek to follow the precepts.

Thank you for pointing this out Jundo.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Onshin]

Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

Who is this 'Brad' person anyway, and if you all think so little of him why do you follow his words? :twisted:

[Graceleejenkins]

Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

Here is what I took as the gist of Brad's comments:

"Zen teaching is not a profession and must never be a profession. A professional is someone who charges for their services and promises some kind of results, even if not necessarily promising what the client views as success. The moment Zen teachers start looking upon what they do in this way, what they do is no longer Zen teaching at all. . . .

What is being proposed here is a professional organization for professional people who, just like the doctors, lawyers and therapists we’re being categorized with, charge for their services and promise results. People who charge for their services and promise results ought to be held accountable for the results of those services. . .

I, for one, do not promise any results. Nor do I offer any help. I will let you join me in my work if I feel that you won’t get in the way of what I need to do. Historically this has always been the attitude of Zen teachers. Why else do you think it was so hard for people to become students of the Zen teachers of the past?"

I do think most of this is much ado about nothing except semantics and the possible questioning of each other's motives. Jundo believes that the motives of the two organizations are different from those that I think Brad assumes.

Depending upon how much Brad lets someone "get in the way" of his work, he may be a little harsh, but, in life, there is always that line somewhere, because there are always tradeoffs. Gassho, Grace.