Zen is not in the Helping Profession

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  • Stephanie

    #16
    Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

    I think Brad has some valid points, but I also agree with KvonNJ's assessment of Brad's stance as self-aggrandizing and shirking responsibility. I think the issue is that human beings are not perfect and whether we go in one direction or another, there's going to be a particular set of imperfections that come with it. Either we have a Zen free of the ills that beset large institutions but also full of teachers who take on authority positions and do whatever with students without anyone or any standard to call them out for it, or a Zen that becomes somewhat institutionalized and takes on some of the accretions of institutional dogma, pandering, and materialism.

    I honestly think there's something to be said for either side, but I'd rather err on the side of some form of accountability for Zen teachers. I think of all the young people attracted to Zen looking for direction who don't have any way to check on the legitimacy of Zen Master Rama Lama Ding Dong who invites them on a hot tub retreat with him. Some people are going to end up on the wrong end of Roshi Ding Dong's, er, dong, anyway, but I know that when I was in college I tended to do some research into things I was getting into, to see if institutions and organizations were connected to any larger network of legitimacy. Of course, these very authorizations and organizations can be suspect themselves, and/or not that effective at weeding out charlatans, but at least they're a starting point for research.

    I think Brad may have a bit of an agenda when it comes to this sort of thing because he sleeps with students, or at least has done so in the past. The helping professions and these organizing bodies frown on that. I agree with Brad's assessment of how Zen teachers work with students as far as it goes that teachers are not experts and the work is a mutual effort (most modern schools of therapy posit the same thing, that client and therapist are "collaborators") but I disagree with his arguments that a relationship between teacher and student is non-hierarchical. No matter how much you might try to make it non-hierarchical, it is so by its very nature. That's uncomfortable for some folks, but that uncomfortability can't erase the fact.

    I agree that Zen teachers are not "helping professionals" in the sense that they are not trained or licensed to help people with anything outside of the spiritual path. A lot of American Zen teachers take a self-help approach and start offering their thoughts and techniques in areas where they have no training and limited understanding and could do some harm. And some people seem to find an easier way into a therapy career by means of donning some religious hat than actually training to be a therapist.

    However, one area in which I think Zen teachers are in the same exact boat as "helping professionals" is the nature of the power differential in the relationship between the teacher/therapist and student/client. For those who undergo education and training in the therapy field, there is extensive training in understanding these dynamics, and how to maintain proper and non-harmful boundaries between therapist and client. I think Zen teachers often do not understand these dynamics, and either neglect them out of ignorance or naivete, or ignore them out of greed and self-serving ends, often with the same result.

    People project a lot onto authority figures. And Zen teachers become authority figures, no matter how much they might not want to be. People project "mommy" or "daddy issues" onto Zen teachers just as they do therapists. People misinterpret the intimacies of the relationship with a teacher and experience unhealthy or misplaced sexual attraction to Zen teachers just as they do therapists. The difference is that therapists are trained how to deal with these projections and "transference," and their own "countertransference," while Zen teachers are not. This is not to say there are not therapists who neglect this education or ignore it or make mistakes in spite of their best efforts. But a lot of harm is prevented just through the fact it is widely taught to be mindful of proper boundaries in the therapeutic relationship.

    I will make my own bold statement and say that a sexual relationship between someone who came to a Zen teacher looking for a teacher and that teacher will never, ever, be one that is starting from a healthy place. Because the attraction and magnetism comes from the sexual allure of perceived power, and the dynamic that plays out between someone who is relating to someone they see as so much more powerful and knowing than them, and someone who is receiving that adulation, kicks up a lot of dust and dirt. It can be very sexually alluring (human sexuality is all about power dynamics, dominance/submission, etc., just study our closest animal relatives) but an emotional hornet's nest. There is no way to form an equal partnership out of a relationship that started out of someone's attraction to someone they saw as someone who could guide them and show them the way (i.e. someone projected onto as a parental figure).

    No matter how well-intentioned someone may be, I think that without the proper education and training, instinctive sexual and emotional responses take over, and so without any sort of regulating body holding people accountable, and with the ongoing mystique of the Zen teacher as someone with some sort of occult power or mysticism, more often than not there would be impropriety coming up in teacher/student relationships. With some form of people coming together, looking at what they do and talking about it, at least there can be some awareness, some standard, some forum. I'm definitely on the side of it being better to have it than not, though there certainly are costs and "trade-offs."

    Comment

    • Jundo
      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
      • Apr 2006
      • 40679

      #17
      Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

      Hi,

      I think that Brad makes some very good points in his article, but I also thinks he raises a couple of strawmen not really there.

      I am a member of both organizations ... as far, anyway, as one could call those loose knit, disorganized groups even "organizations".

      But beyond that ... I don't know any member of the SZBA or AZTA who thinks of being a Zen teacher as a "profession" in which, as Brad says, a Zen teacher is someone "who charge[s] money to people who come to us to be helped, the way a professional therapist does." The only exception I can think of are the few members who actually are psychologists and therapists and seek to combine their work, as well as those money grubbers (like Genpo Roshi, not a member of the SZBA or AZTA) who try to turn Buddhist teaching into a business. In fact, the AZTA and SZBA members spend a good portion of their time trying to keep the calling of "Zen Teaching" from becoming that. Most members of these organizations work very hard and receive little if any compensation for it ... often barely able to pay the rent via donations and such.

      Furthermore, most members of the SZBA and AZTA that I know are very much opposed to the "teacher" as "guru" thing, and almost all would see a teacher as having a role like an experienced voice sharing the same path ... a friend in this practice ... who offers a helpful word or hand from time to time to someone along the way. Each practitioner on this path must do their own heavy lifting, and the teacher and Sangha are merely there as a support. That, I believe, would be the overwhelmingly prevalent view among the members of those groups I have encountered.

      Maybe "calling" is a better word, like for any decent member of the clergy. Whether we want to admit it or not, and whether Brad wants to recognize it or not, people come to us ... ask us for advice ... and we can hurt them if we are insincere or abuse the situation. I have people coming to me at times in their life like divorce, cancer diagnosis, deaths of a loved one ... and while my role is primarily to direct them to the Zafu, it is simply wrong to believe that I have no ethical standards I need follow in such cases because "it is not my job as a Zen teacher to help people." What is more, if someone is asking me for some guidance on their Zen practice, it is silly to think that there is no relationship between us in which I could do the person harm because they trust me. I often encounter folks who are vulnerable. I do have a position of trust not to hurt people, and groups of teachers like the SZBA and AZTA have some responsibility to see that people do not get hurt by so-called "Buddhist teachers".

      The fact of the matter is that the SZBA and AZTA are loose knit associations of teachers from a variety of Zen traditions, all flavors of Zen ... liberal, conservative, traditional and new fangled. In a way, they are barely more than discussion groups. They have tried to enforce minimal standards for recognizing who are folks coming to teach with some legitimate credentials ... and who are all the con-men and flimflam artists out there, like Barry Graham who claims to be successor to a made up Zen Teacher from a non-existent temple. They have tried to encourage (not even insist on) some minimal standards of training for young priests to make sure that people are not turned out on the world with a title and little more (we are not "professionals", but if you think a Zen teacher cannot do harm to someone's heart as real as an untrained quack heart surgeon with a white coat, a scalpel, and a degree from a fake medical school ... one is naive about the damage we can do to lives.). Many have also wrestled with how to respond to problems of ethics and Sangha members being hurt (you will hear more about that in the coming days), and they are doing their best even without any real police powers except the pen and the wagging finger (because the "organizations" are so disorganized and toothless).

      But the SZBA and AZTA are not nefarious groups seeking on appointing a Pope and turning Zen in the West into a doctrinaire church. Not most of the members I know (maybe a few would like that).

      They have given me a bit of a hard time because of our recent "Online Ordinations" and the way we are trying to train our novice priests around here. Most of the folks who are members have some concerns about it ... AND THEY ARE RIGHT TO HAVE THOSE CONCERNS! They want to make sure that "Zen Teacher" certificates are not being handed out like diplomas from an online diploma mill. So far, it looks I am succeeding in winning them over about the seriousness of what we are doing here ... but even if I cannot, I do not fault them for trying to have some minimum standards for what it means to be ordained and to train as a priest.

      The fact is that both the SZBA and AZTA let me in as a member. That shows that their standards can't be all so high. :?

      Gassho, Jundo
      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

      Comment

      • AlanLa
        Member
        • Mar 2008
        • 1405

        #18
        Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

        Wow, it's really late and I just got back from a professional conference (non-zen, of course) where I have been spouting my professional ass off, and so I check into the forum here and see this. TOO FUNNY :twisted:

        My basic point, as a professional in the field of counseling - especially as applied to those with disabilities - is philosophically quite in line with Brad's. I tell my students all the time, and I mean ALL THE TIME, that we are not in the business of helping people. Rather, we are in the business of helping people help themselves. So I think on his basic premise I can extrapolate that to the zen profession with complete agreement. I in absolutely no way feel Jundo or Taigu are here to help me except if it means to help me help myself. It's a very important distinction.

        I just had this almost exact conversation (again, my profession, not zen) tonight just before logging on and at least a couple of times at the conference I was at. It is not a position that people like. I got into at least one fight over it, and I think I "buddha'd" my way out of it. People mean well, but meaning well and trying to be helpful is often not actually helpful. Sorry, but that's just true.

        Helping people creates a distinction between those that are helped and those that need help, thus a duality. That ain't the Zen I know. That ain't the Zen I practice everyday. So, again, philosophically, I am right with Brad on this one. BUT, and this is a BIG BUT, i understand the practical problems with his position as stated.

        Sorry, it's late, as I said earlier, so I'll try to parse this out later. I know it's difficult, but it's a very worthwhile issue. But right now sleep is most helpful to me.

        zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
        AL (Jigen) in:
        Faith/Trust
        Courage/Love
        Awareness/Action!

        I sat today

        Comment

        • Ryumon
          Member
          • Apr 2007
          • 1811

          #19
          Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

          Originally posted by KvonNJ
          And this simply isn't honest. Brad teaches. In a Zendo, a classroom, or elsewhere... he teaches. He writes books. He lectures. Apparently, our "non-professional" doesn't eschew the paychecks, delivering the Dharma instead in small doses and sound bytes, complete with t-shirts and souvenirs, without the inconvenience of a "student" coming back to shatter his ego with the startling news that his advice or teaching just didn't pan out.
          Yes, if he gives talks or writes books, he is imparting knowledge - unless, of course, he's just telling stories and writing novels, which is not the case. But he's trying to pretend - using some very curious logic - that he is not an authority figure, when he claims he is a "Zen monk" (whatever that means), a claim that is intended to give weight to what he says.

          Yes, I think he wants the good without the problems of the bad, and it shows a serious lack of respect for those to whom he imparts knowledge. (And, while I think, from reading one of his books and some of his blog posts, that he is disturbed, he does have some useful knowledge to impart.)

          One more thing, he seems to want to minimize the role of both teachers and students. I was a teacher for many years, and the way teachers and students interact is quite special. It doesn't always work - in fact, it probably works less often than one wants - and teachers fail very often, in part because of themselves, and in part because of students' lack of motivation. Perhaps he just wants to avoid accepting his own failure by saying that he has no students?
          I know nothing.

          Comment

          • Ankai
            Novice Priest-in-Training
            • Nov 2007
            • 1015

            #20
            Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

            Originally posted by AlanLa
            I tell my students all the time, and I mean ALL THE TIME, that we are not in the business of helping people. Rather, we are in the business of helping people help themselves.

            you can call it "helping people help themselves, Al, but in giving such assistance, even if you're pointing them in the right direction or hooking them up with resources- internal or external- that they were unaware of... well, frankly it's all pretty semantic. Helping people help themselves starts with HELPING PEOPLE because that's exactly what it is.
            Gassho!
            護道 安海


            -Godo Ankai

            I'm still just starting to learn. I'm not a teacher. Please don't take anything I say too seriously. I already take myself too seriously!

            Comment

            • Nenka
              Member
              • Aug 2010
              • 1239

              #21
              Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

              Originally posted by kirkmc
              Yes, if he gives talks or writes books, he is imparting knowledge - unless, of course, he's just telling stories and writing novels, which is not the case. But he's trying to pretend - using some very curious logic - that he is not an authority figure, when he claims he is a "Zen monk" (whatever that means), a claim that is intended to give weight to what he says.
              Point taken.

              Also, thanks, Jundo, for your explanation of what the AZTA and SZBA do. A lot there I didn't know.

              Speaking of a lot there I didn't know:

              Originally posted by Stephanie
              I think Brad may have a bit of an agenda when it comes to this sort of thing because he sleeps with students, or at least has done so in the past.
              Ehhhh . . . maybe it's best he wants to stay away from students now . . .

              :?

              Comment

              • Hoyu
                Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 2020

                #22
                Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

                Jennifer wrote:
                Ehhhh . . . maybe it's best he wants to stay away from students now . . .
                But remember, he has no students! :wink:
                I don't know Brad personally but I have read some of his work which I did enjoy.

                Gassho,
                John
                Ho (Dharma)
                Yu (Hot Water)

                Comment

                • Jundo
                  Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                  • Apr 2006
                  • 40679

                  #23
                  Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

                  Hi Guys,

                  REQUEST FROM JUNDO:

                  I will plead "Right Speech" / No Gossip here and say that we should not speculate about Brad and moralize here so easily.

                  The Genpo and Eido Roshis situations are egregious, long term, involving multiple relationships with students in which some folks were hurt, misuse of the teaching place, and all admitted (for the most part) by the two men involved. As far as I know, Brad (in his book) said that he had a relationship with someone who came to sittings a few times, he does not consider that there was a "student-teacher" relationship, and the relationship developed quite some time after she no longer came to the group when his marriage was ending. So, I feel I may criticize Genpo and Eido for their actions together with other teachers, but I do not want to do so easily in other cases where I do not have so much information, where the situation is much less clear.

                  Gassho, Jundo
                  ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                  Comment

                  • Hoyu
                    Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 2020

                    #24
                    Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

                    Thank you Jundo Sensei for stopping things before they turn into a runaway gossip train. As Brad isnt here to clarify things for himself It was nice for you to step in on his behalf. From what you said it seems much milder and less cause to crucify over than how it may have come across throughout this thread.

                    Gassho,
                    John
                    Ho (Dharma)
                    Yu (Hot Water)

                    Comment

                    • Ankai
                      Novice Priest-in-Training
                      • Nov 2007
                      • 1015

                      #25
                      Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

                      Dalliances with women aside, I simply find his comments on the teacher-student relationship to be completely wrong, and his assertions about it in his own life to be dishonest, self serving and hypocritical. Whether its about clearing some imaginary moral hurdle to allow for sleeping with someone or simply absolving himself from the responsibilities of a position he voluntarily takes on (whether he likes it or not,) it's the shirking of that responsibility... the moral and spiritual laziness that turns Zen and Buddhism into nothing but a money making venture for him... THAT'S the part I can't stand. It puts him about a half a step away from the televangelist who makes money off the Gospel without really having a pastoral role in peoples' lives... and it's gross. It's also EXACTLY the thing he claims to be avoiding by eschewing teaching groups and whatnot.
                      Well done, Brad. You're exactly what you claim not to be. Strip away the leather jackets, the deliberately shocking statements and behavior, and the constant posing, and you're left with just another religious wonk flogging religion and practice and spirituality for money but without the inconvenience of relationship.
                      Gassho!
                      護道 安海


                      -Godo Ankai

                      I'm still just starting to learn. I'm not a teacher. Please don't take anything I say too seriously. I already take myself too seriously!

                      Comment

                      • Rich
                        Member
                        • Apr 2009
                        • 2614

                        #26
                        Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

                        Maybe if I had some kind of relationship with Brad other than occasionally reading his blog posts I would have stronger opinions about him. His comments about difference between a zen teacher and the helping professions makes sense and not wanting formal students is his personal choice. The money he earns is from writing and his talking gigs he claims just covers expenses.
                        _/_
                        Rich
                        MUHYO
                        無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

                        https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

                        Comment

                        • AlanLa
                          Member
                          • Mar 2008
                          • 1405

                          #27
                          Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

                          Originally posted by KvonNJ
                          Originally posted by AlanLa
                          I tell my students all the time, and I mean ALL THE TIME, that we are not in the business of helping people. Rather, we are in the business of helping people help themselves.

                          you can call it "helping people help themselves, Al, but in giving such assistance, even if you're pointing them in the right direction or hooking them up with resources- internal or external- that they were unaware of... well, frankly it's all pretty semantic. Helping people help themselves starts with HELPING PEOPLE because that's exactly what it is.
                          I don't disagree at all, but it's an important nuance that I define this way: Helping people tends to be doing things for them, and helping people help themselves is more like giving people what they need in order to do things for themselves. So, I can help you find enlightenment and tell you "There it is!" (after you've paid $19.95 for my seminar), or I can help you find enlightenment by pointing you to the zafu and giving you tips and instruction and support, etc. (all freely given) so that you can figure it out yourself to the point that someday you say "There it is!" completely on your own. Which form of enlightenment will mean more to you? Probably, hopefully, the latter. Which is faster and easier to do? The former, for sure. Which one feeds the needs of the teacher's ego more? Again, the former, for sure. Which camp would Brad be in? He would probably disagree with all of this :wink: but I would put him clearly in the "helping people help themselves" camp, and I very much appreciate his efforts to get this message out there.

                          Brad may be flawed (as are we all), but that doesn't mean he's wrong.
                          Sometimes his message may be flawed (because of his own flaws or because words are so imperfect), but that doesn't mean the message isn't valuable.
                          Sometimes it's hard to separate the man from the message, but as students that is our responsibility -- not his.
                          AL (Jigen) in:
                          Faith/Trust
                          Courage/Love
                          Awareness/Action!

                          I sat today

                          Comment

                          • Ankai
                            Novice Priest-in-Training
                            • Nov 2007
                            • 1015

                            #28
                            Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

                            Still comes across as a semantic difference, Al. Point me to the Zafu and you HAVE helped me. Tell me something I don't know and you HAVE taught me. And the teacher/student relationship has been at the core of Buddhism since some fellows started following the Buddha after his enlightenment.
                            Gassho!
                            護道 安海


                            -Godo Ankai

                            I'm still just starting to learn. I'm not a teacher. Please don't take anything I say too seriously. I already take myself too seriously!

                            Comment

                            • Taigu
                              Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest
                              • Aug 2008
                              • 2710

                              #29
                              Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

                              Thank you for your words, Al. Brad's style is by far not my cup of tea at all but his way to display the Dharma is just brilliant and many of his intuitions spot on. Of course, flaws can be found ( in any of us), at it is our job to see clearly and distingish between the personal s.... and the priceless teachings.

                              The fact that Brad refuses to get into a dynamic of teacher to sudent relationship is presumably something he has to work on. He is not the first relunctant teacher, Kobun roshi was famous for his multople attempts at not teaching (and meanwhile teaching anyway)...The Zen history is packed with this priests turned into beggars and nobodies. As to Brad' money, he is struggling. I don't think he is just like what he is so critical of.

                              gassho


                              Taigu

                              Comment

                              • AlanLa
                                Member
                                • Mar 2008
                                • 1405

                                #30
                                Re: Zen is not in the Helping Profession

                                It's more than just semantics, Karl; it's behavioral. It's about a form of action. There's lots of levels to helping, and helping people to help themselves is a higher level. How's this: There's chocolate and then there's double fudge chocolate. The difference between the two is not semantic, right. Same idea applied in a different way.
                                AL (Jigen) in:
                                Faith/Trust
                                Courage/Love
                                Awareness/Action!

                                I sat today

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