Do Zennies Pray?

[Yugen]

Re: Do Zennies Pray?

Stephen,
Thich Nhat Hanh has an absolutely wonderful book - The Energy of Prayer - How to Deepen Your Spiritual Practice - his work is wonderful and I found this book very helpful in answering my own questions regarding prayer. So for me the question is not whom do I pray to, or what do I pray for; rather it is "what do I pray about and what am I going to do about it?"

TNH's writing was very helpful to me in making the journey from my Greek Orthodox heritage over to a Zen Buddhist practice. My own background and culture is very Orthodox and he helped me set in perspective many of the same questions you are asking.

I pray - all the time. I do not absolve myself of any responsibility for my actions or taking action itself. I do not hand things over to another being, deity, or concept. Prayer helps me achieve clarity and develop the power of intention. It is a mind rehearsal for positive action and behavior.

By the way - I love Nishida Kitaro's definition of God: "the spirit of unity at the center of the universe." And as others who are wiser than I have said here, "if there is a God I chop wood and carry water. If there is no God I chop wood and carry water..."

Gassho,
Yugen

[ctpowers8]

Re: Do Zennies Pray?

Stephen, I think many of the posters have summed up well that you can do both without contradiction. I know many priest and pastors who practice zen. In Korea the Passionist priests of the catholic church used to come in meditate with us. I would recommend reading books by Fr. Bede Griffiths or Thich Nhat Hanh's book Living Buddha living Christ. I think the biggest problem you may face is that your friends may be taking a Fundamentalist view of Christianity which can be hard to explain the nuances of non-duality. I had a Baptist minister come up to me in my buddhist robes in Korea and ridiculed me for idolatry and he couldn't understand that bowing to the buddha was not about worship but an understanding of the inherent Buddha nature and a way of breaking down the ego. My belief in God is best expressed in by these famous Sufi saying, "God I do not love you for want of heaven and I do not love you for fear of hell. I love you for the want of knowing and loving you." " I searched for God in the Mosque and I could not find him. I went to the church and the temple and he was not there. I went north, south, east and west he was nowhere to be seen. I finally looked in my heart and there he was."

[Risho]

Re: Do Zennies Pray?

All the posts are so good, but I'm still compelled to respond.

Damn, this reminds me of the question that Spock is asked in Star Trek IV. He breezes through logic and science and then is asked, "How do you feel?"

In any case, I say the Lord's Prayer every night before going to bed. Zen has helped clarify Christianity to me. I've always sort of had a Zen slant to my outlook in life. I try not to pray with selfish intentions, and I've never been big on theology that preached to do good as a result of some sort of future guarantee for eternal happiness. I think it's critical in this life to find a way to be thankful for what it is we do have now and express that gratitude in a selfless, compassionate way. That is what I think of as practice and prayer, as some have called it, to me.

The main reason I see no conflict with Christianity and Buddhism is that Buddha was not God. He was a human, albeit a highly realized individual. But nevertheless, the practice is not some mythical, magical thing. It's available to all of us.

It shows how to appreciate life, it transforms life so that it is nothing but appreciation.

Soul, no soul, heaven, no heaven? Does it change who we are? I don't know I say let God worry about Heaven/Hell and the rules of entry, if there are any, and for us to focus on what we have to deal with now.

And to echo what Heitetsu said, about not worrying about being a Buddhist, I really, really, really like it, and I feel the same way. I used to think, how does a Zen person do this, how does a Zen person do that? Who cares? We are not here to be someone else, we need to be ourselves. To me, it's hard to know who that is, but that's the fun of it. If we don't, we're wasting time, and this is all a gift too precious to waste. This is all we have (not that we own it), but why worry about the labels? Just experience now.. Crap, I don't mean that to sound new agey. lol

Gassho,

Risho

[Saijun]

Re: Do Zennies Pray?

Hello friends,

It is my feeling that there may be a supreme of some sort, but it cannot be limited to one concept. It is the garbage in the dump and the cathedral both. Praying is picking up the trash from the cathedral, putting it in the dump. Every living, breathing moment is a prayer, an offering, to the world. Simply being is praying.

Metta,

Saijun

[Hoyu]

Re: Do Zennies Pray?

Hi All,
One of the things that draws me to Zen Buddhism is that it concerns itself less with such matters and focuses more on the here and now of this lifetime.

Gassho,
John

[Shokai]

Re: Do Zennies Pray?

Thanks John; Bingo !! :shock:

[Kyonin]

Re: Do Zennies Pray?

I think being a buddhist requires us to also consider that life may have no meaning at all. As I say, I don't think the buddha thought contemplating it in the first place was relevant to our practice, but I do think you have to consider both or neither one. To believe life must mean something is to cling to an idea that we cannot let go of...and that is suffering.

Dosho, I totally agree with you. Humans tend to look up for meanings in everything we do, but what if there is no meaning at all. Personally that's exactly what I think.

We just live for the day, whithout caring if there is a higher power or not. It's just us and the dharma.

[Kyonin]

Re: Do Zennies Pray?

Hey Stephen,

I don't think Buddhists pray in the way the Christian do. We sit, we bow and we dedicate ceremonies to out teachers and to metta. Maybe that would be the equivalent to praying, only we do not think a god is important for our practice.

[edward]

Re: Do Zennies Pray?

Rev. Shohaku Okumura is director of the Soto Zen Buddhism International Center in San Francisco. He says this about the topic of praying:

Buddhadharma: Reverend Okumura, in the Zen tradition there doesn’t seem to be much
reference to prayer. Are there practices of prayer, devotion or supplication in Zen?

Reverend Shohaku Okumura: Many think of Zen in opposition to Shin or Pure Land
Buddhism. People sometimes think of Zen as a “self power” practice. I think, however, we
must be very careful about the meaning of “other power” and “self power.” As Dogen Zenji
said, “To study the Buddha way is to study the self.” But he also said, “To study the self is
to forget the self.” Dogen called our practice of meditation shikantaza, which means “just
sitting.” This “just sitting” is actually the way we study the self, but this is also the way we
forget the self.
This self is not really the self as an individual, which is separate from others or from other
power. When we sit, we sit on the ground that is beyond the dichotomy of self and other. In
that sense, our sitting practice is a prayer to give up the self and to put our entire being on
the ground of interdependent origination.

We see ourselves as individuals separate from the other, based on a distorted belief or
assumption. Then we sit on the cushion and we just sit, with an upright posture and our
eyes open. We don’t use any visualization or mantra or even counting or watching breaths.
We merely sit. In that way, the self can give up—we can put more emphasis on reality
rather than on this fixed individual self. In that sense, this is a prayer. It does not mean that
the self prays to the other for some benefit, but rather we place our entire being on the
basis of interdependent origination. That is an essential meaning of prayer in Buddhism.

Gassho,

Edward

[Jundo]

Re: Do Zennies Pray?

We just live for the day, whithout caring if there is a higher power or not. It's just us and the dharma.

Thank you, John, for that lovely explanation by Shohaku Okamura Roshi.

I just want to comment briefly, though, on this expression by Choco "We just live for the day". That can be a bit misleading, for it may sound as if we just "live for now, and to hell with the future".

Certainly, as one face of our practice, we can sometimes drop all thoughts of past and future ... present too ... and just live amid the timeless, in the "now now" apart from all dreams of things that may come. However, as another face of a monk's practice ... their is work to be done today, otherwise we all starve tomorrow. If the vegetables are not planted today, they will not grow in the summer. If the roof is not patched on a dry day, we will be soaking wet when the rainy season comes. Heck, even as I drop all thought of "life and death" ... I still buy some life insurance, for I have a child to get through school if I am not around! We must think of tomorrow too.

So, I often say ...

If there is a "God" ... whether in the Judeo-Christian way or some other, whether named "Allah" "Jehovah" "Thor" "Brahma" or "Stanley" ... I will fetch water and chop wood, seeking to live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way).

If there is no "God" "Allah" or "Stanley", or any source or creator or point to the universe at all, I will fetch water and chop wood, seeking to live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way).

I do not know if, in the next life, that "gentle way, avoiding harm" will buy me a ticket to heaven and keep me out of hell ... but I know for a fact that it will go far to do so in this life, today, where I see people create all manner of "heavens and hells" for themselves and those around them by their harmful words, thoughts and acts in this life.

And if there is a "heaven and hell" in the next life, or other effects of Karma now ... well, my actions now have effects then too, and might be the ticket to heaven or good rebirth.

In other words, whatever the case ... today, now ... live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way) ... seeking to avoid harm now and in the future too.

Gassho, Jundo

[Rev R]

Re: Do Zennies Pray?

Speaking solely for this one..."mu".

I could rant and rave for a thousand years or until I got tired, whichever comes first, on "god" and prayer- but today I will abstain. :twisted:

[Hoyu]

Re: Do Zennies Pray?

Thank you, John, for that lovely explanation by Shohaku Okamura Roshi.

Hi Jundo Sensei,
Thanks but that was the work of Edward.

Gassho,
John