Do Zennies Pray?

[journeywriter]

I am new to Zen (as is obvious by the question that forms this topic.) To re-introduce myself a bit, my path started with fundamentalist charismatic Christianity, which evolved into new age Christianity, which is evolving into Zen (although I don't yet know whether I will become a full-fledged Buddhist). As I have made this most recent transition, I have been asked this question: Do Zennies pray? I honestly don't know the answer.

I suppose what I may really be asking is, do Zennies believe in a Higher Power, Supreme Being, Cosmic Couch Potato, or whatever? If so, do you beseech this entity for guidance, answers, healing, better popcorn for tonight's movie, or whatever?

Some of the Christians with whom I am acquainted (and related) are very concerned about the condition of my "soul," and are afraid that I'm giving up on God-as-they-understand-God, or at least God-as-they-think-I-understand-God. I will say that I no longer deal with the issue of "salvation," "sin," or "Heaven/Hell" in the traditional Christian context, so this is not part of my question. I am also NOT asking if zazen is prayer, or if zennies pray when they sit zazen. That much, at least, I understand. But outside of zazen, outside of sitting, during the rest of life...

Do Zennies pray?

Gassho,

Stephen

[Taylor]

Re: Do Zennies Pray?

Hello and Gassho,

To be brief: your whole life is a prayer, your sitting, your walking, your eating, your bathroom use. Every bit of it. The Buddha never specified any higher power, he didn't find it vital to his teaching of the relief of suffering, right here, right now.

So let your life be a prayer to itself and every other being.

If others find me incorrect, please speak up. This is just my two cents.

Taylor

[Dosho]

Re: Do Zennies Pray?

Stephen,

I never really thought of anything I've done or currently do as prayer, so I would have to answer no. Although I was not raised in any particular religous tradition, that does not mean religion was not a well discussed topic growing up. My understanding is that the buddha did not specifically dispute the existence of a higher power, but felt it was not relevant to practice. And when someone argues that worshiping buddha might be considered praying to another God, buddha did not see himself as such so the comparision is not really valid. I think someone who does believe in God might be persuaded that buddhism is a philosophy and thus not sacrilege, but as a buddhist I don't think the line is so simple. However, is it possible that would satisfy your friends and loved ones?

So, I certainly cannot speak for others and hope that they chime in, but I wouldn't agree with Taylor that life is a prayer. Perhaps it is and I am unwaware of it, but it's probably just that I would just never put it in that context in the first place.

Hope that helps.

Gassho,
Dosho

[journeywriter]

Re: Do Zennies Pray?

Taylor - I was just reading your blog post from Jan. 31 (Myths) and found a beautiful quote: "If God exists, I will chop wood and carry water. If God does not exist, I will chop wood and carry water." That gives me a perspective for my second question, anyway.

Dosho - I have actually debated the question of whether Buddhists worship Buddha with someone who believes they do. I don't think so, although I've found some stuff on the 'net that alludes to the possibility. However, I agree with you that Buddha never told anybody to do that. (Interestingly, Jesus never actually said that, either.) And while my family & friends may be satisfied with thinking that Buddhism is only a philosophy, the problem is that I don't believe that so I can't endorse that.

With two votes cast, I'm seeing Buddha 2, Higher Power 0. That certainly helps.

Thanks, guys.

Gassho,

Stephen

[Geika]

Re: Do Zennies Pray?

...do Zennies believe in a Higher Power, Supreme Being, Cosmic Couch Potato, or whatever? If so, do you beseech this entity for guidance, answers, healing, better popcorn for tonight's movie, or whatever?

Yes to all of the above, for me.

Maybe "God" is an oversoul that is all of us at once... maybe it is Tao... the Force... maybe it is the particles we are made of, or something like Chi, Orgone, or Prana... maybe it is a single, intelligent, omnipresent entity-- I don't know! I do know that I feel presence in the sense that I am not living my life all alone; that there is an observer, whether within, outside of me, or both, that is calm, loving, and wise: a Buddha.

Life means something. We aren't sure what, but it could be as simple as the universe experiencing itself. The fact that we, these tiny specks of stardust, can express love, collect knowledge, and figure out all the things it needs to survive and thrive is a miracle to me. It is even more wonderful, given that I might actually have an afterlife of some sort to look forward to. I feel gratitude, and must direct it somewhere. I thank some grand image of this intricate universe and intelligence (God), and funnily enough, things seem to go my way when I stop and sincerely ask for it.

I don't know who is listening-- but I feel very listened to when I actually take the time to pay attention. Questions that I hold in my head for a few days will be spontaneously answered, sometimes.

Taylor - I was just reading your blog post from Jan. 31 (Myths) and found a beautiful quote: "If God exists, I will chop wood and carry water. If God does not exist, I will chop wood and carry water."

I love this. I am often reminding myself, "Before enlightenment, wash the dishes. After enlightenment, wash the dishes." I think it is my favorite.

[Dosho]

Re: Do Zennies Pray?

Life means something.

I would tend to agree with you Amelia, but I think being a buddhist requires us to also consider that life may have no meaning at all. As I say, I don't think the buddha thought contemplating it in the first place was relevant to our practice, but I do think you have to consider both or neither one. To believe life must mean something is to cling to an idea that we cannot let go of...and that is suffering.

[anista]

Do Zennies Pray?

I suppose what I may really be asking is, do Zennies believe in a Higher Power, Supreme Being, Cosmic Couch Potato, or whatever? If so, do you beseech this entity for guidance, answers, healing, better popcorn for tonight's movie, or whatever?

There really is no zen without buddhism. Everything is, according to the Buddha, subject to the law of action and consequence (karma-vipaka). Even the gods, if they exist, would thus be subject to this law. Nobody is standing outside of this, all is one.

In the end, we must wake up. Nobody can do this for us. Not even gods.

[Jundo]

Re: Do Zennies Pray?

Do Zennies pray?

Gassho,

Stephen

Hi Stephen,

As you can see from some of the responses, this is a bit "in the eye of the beholder" for each practitioner. Some Buddhists (Zen Buddhists included) surely pray to Buddha, Kannon or the like for special favors or assistance in times of trouble. Some of our Christian Zennies might combine Zazen with prayer to their experience of God. Others may not.

Personally, on the subject of prayer, I frequently experience such "winking at heaven" moments ... as when our son was in the hospital last year (or during the recent earthquake) ... calling on any resources available, but simultaneously asking nothing and no favors ... but asking anyway ... a prayer to Buddha, to Kannon, to God, to anyone or any ear who might listen. Maybe, yes, asking for a favor ... but, at heart, expressing a willingness to yield to it all whatever happens. It might not help, it sure couldn't hurt. In any event, the gratitude, acceptance and willingness to yield to all that happens is vitally important.

And on the subject of Deity and such, you might find some of our "Tackles the Big Questions" series of interest ... Please have a look ...

viewforum.php?f=24

I sometimes write something like this ...

Here is my simplistic view:

If there is a "God" ... whether in the Judeo-Christian way or some other, whether named "Allah" "Jehovah" "Thor" "Brahma" or "Stanley" ... I will fetch water and chop wood, seeking to live in a gentle way.

If there is no "God" "Allah" or "Stanley", or any source or creator or point to the universe at all, I will fetch water and chop wood, seeking to live in a gentle way.

If there is a "God" or "Power" or "Spirit" who has kindly given us life, I will honor that fact by living that life fully and seeking to be a human being who does little harm to others of his/her/its/whatever's creatures and creations.

And if there is no such "God" or "Power" or "Spirit", I will still live this life fully and seek to do little harm.

I think that, in our Zen Practice, we do taste a truth that some people may call "God" or "That" or "Thou" or "Buddha" or some such name. It is the sensation that there is some intimate connection to this universe, some profound basis to our being born, some deep beauty behind it all. In fact, we experience that this Reality, and all creatures, are just who we are ... that we are just That.

But my attitude remains much like a newborn infant lying in a crib, not understanding anything beyond the fact that shadows are passing before its eyes. The world contains many mysteries that the infant cannot fathom. Yet somehow we were allowed the wonder of life, and something in this world provides the sun and air and nutriment and drink we need to survive. Here we are, and some wonderful cause(s) let us be so!

If it is just the world, mechanical and unthinking, I express my gratitude to that.

If it is a "god" or "power" or "consciousness" or something else far beyond our understanding, I express my gratitude to that.

If someone is a Christian or Muslim or Jew and open to Buddhism, I see no reason that they cannot combine the two smoothly. (It depends on how flexible they are in their own minds about combining the perspectives.) But, you can practice Zen if you are a baseball fan, you can practice Zen if you are a football fan, you can practice if you believe in god, you can practice if you don't, you can practice if one fundamentally drops the whole need for the question.

Gassho, Jundo

[Shokai]

Re: Do Zennies Pray?

Jundo-oso wrote:

Yet somehow we were allowed the wonder of life, and something in this world provides the sun and air and nutriment and drink we need to survive. Here we are, and some wonderful cause(s) let us be so!

Personally, I believe the greatest gift/talent is the ability to love ourselves and share that love with others. If you feel grateful for that and want to express it somehow; to some one. Then perhaps you should have a Stanley, Brian or even Shirley waiting in the wings. I suppose it is a great comfort to some to think there is an afterlife and that someone is doing the housekeeping.

However, I only have this one life experience to refer to, which I was introduced to by my mother. As far back as I can remember, at bedtime we'd kneel and say,

"Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep. If I should die before I wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take. God bless {followed by a list of people you know or are related to.} "

And, as a kid, that's very comforting, warm, fuzzy; makes you feel safe. Is it real? Is it true? Is it fair?
Who said life was fair; Stanley, Shirley, Brian?

I guess the point that I am thankful for is that the dying thing was always on the table. And, if you re-read that little prayer you see that it includes everything that's needed to satisfy a zen practitioner. There is a world where I can assert my will. There is a world that I shall leave. There is a time where I should sleep. There is a world where i can share. And, I am very comfortable with that.

[Seiryu]

Re: Do Zennies Pray?

I agree with what Taylor wrote!

For me personally, I do not pray to ask for things(although Like Jundo mentioned the occasional wink at the sky does happen when things go...astray) but for me when I do my practice or if I do bowing practice, I am not praying or worshiping the Buddha. Instead I am recognizing that I too have that very same potential for Buddhhood in me. What I am doing is trying to remember that when I look at an image of a Buddha, it is the same thing as looking at a mirror. I see myself smiling back at me.

Gassho

Seiryu

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Do Zennies Pray?

which is evolving into Zen (although I don't yet know whether I will become a full-fledged Buddhist).

I wouldn't worry so much about "becomming Buddhist" so much as focusing on becomming who you are and seeing if that lines up with Buddhism.

I suppose what I may really be asking is, do Zennies believe in a Higher Power, Supreme Being, Cosmic Couch Potato, or whatever? If so, do you beseech this entity for guidance, answers, healing, better popcorn for tonight's movie, or whatever?

That's pretty individual. The religion (for yes, it is a religion, though not in the traditional sense) does not mandate that there be devotion to one archetypical Godhead over another, there is no dogma to support the claim of divinity of anyone in Buddhist traditions. They way I feel about this, and I don't know if it's already been said or not because I speed read through some of the replies here (not very mindful of me ops: ) is that I do believe that there is something that started the whole process of life. Things fit together too perfectly and too systematically for it to have all been pure chance with no plan whatsoever. However, what or who or how this Source or One or God or Supreme Being or Flying Spaghetti Monster actually is, I feel is probably well beyond my comprehension. I doubt I could actually conceive of what it might truly be, and I feel that to assume that I can pigeon hole God into my concept of God is a tad.......presumptuous.

So, I suppose, the best thing I can do is be thankful that whatever did whatever it did to make this world and me. Instead of wondering over the nature of God, I will be content to simply believe that something created everything, and the best way to be thankful is to live this life in the best manner that I can, truly living to my fullest potential and to be of benefit to as many other of its creations as I can. As for asking for boons or benefits from this supreme being, I don't even know if my poor voice would be heard, much less seeing my way clear to asking for something when so many need so much more than I do. Plus, that won't make things change, at least that's not my experience of things, I can ask all I want but things will still be as they are regardless, so I will experience them and work with them and "deal" with them on this plane of existence. Guidance we take from the life of Shakyamuni and the words of our ancestors, Joshu, Dogen, Bhodidharma etc. The best sermon is that which one lives not that which one speaks.

[Taigu]

Re: Do Zennies Pray?

Very inspiring to read your prose, guys...


Praying is...being in the presence of. No asking, no begging.

Praying is seeing Kannon in every single human being and just be in the presence of this. Seeing Kannon in the ten thousand activities , brushing teeth, taking the garbage out, working, eating etc.

Praying is doing what needs to be done.

Myoken's direction is great.
Praying is taking action !

Praying is also non-doing ( very different from not doing)

Praying is this life as it is and living in carefreeness.

Praying is to leave Heaven and Hell for what they are, toys and pictures.

Praying is to form a Buddha of flesh and blood in this life without minding about the next one.

gassho

Taigu

[Seishin the Elder]

Re: Do Zennies Pray?

How would one who is Christian and also practises Zen...pray, or not pray? Well how does one dance?
Sometimes one dances alone in the secret quiet of their own room, at other times with wild abandon on the beach in the face of a storm, or being led around with a firm grip by a master dancer, or at the equally stern baton beat of the dance master. However one may dance, one can still dance; and it is the dancing that is important not the when or how or with whom.

Gassho,

Seishin Kyrill

[journeywriter]

Re: Do Zennies Pray?

I really appreciate all the responses and perspectives. Thanks to everyone!

So, to recap...

We pray/not-praying

There is an entity/not-entity

We are God/not-God (or Buddha/not-Buddha)

Whatever else is true or real, we SIT

Am I getting it?


Gassho,

Stephen

[Hogo]

Re: Do Zennies Pray?

Excellent post. Thanks to all for your words.
I used to spend great effort on where we came from, and why are we here, and is there anyone to pray to? Sometimes to the point of anxiety, now I tend to go along with the saying, fetch water, choop wood, That was one of the most brilliant things I had ever heard. of course me being who I am some days I fetch wood, and chop water. Just to keep things interesting.
Gassho~ Hogo.