Restraint

[AlanLa]

Re: Restraint

Advice giving, Chet? Oh no, just idea sharing. What you do is up to you. As to your question, I learned as a kid that outbursts only multiply grief, so lack of restraint has never been a problem for me. If anything, I could maybe benefit from less restraint in some ways. I am trying to be more spontaneous as part of my practice.

[Kaishin]

Re: Restraint

I struggle with too much restraint! I think both are equally bad...

[Saijun]

Re: Restraint

Hello Chet,

Where is the difference between life "on the cushion" and life "off the cushion?"

It's still you, no?

Metta,

Perry

[disastermouse]

Re: Restraint

Hello Chet,

Where is the difference between life "on the cushion" and life "off the cushion?"

It's still you, no?

Metta,

Perry

On the cushion, I don't need to remember to breathe before I act, as a space has already been made for non-action.

[Saijun]

Re: Restraint

Hello Chet,

Where is the difference between life "on the cushion" and life "off the cushion?"

It's still you, no?

Metta,

Perry

On the cushion, I don't need to remember to breathe before I act, as a space has already been made for non-action.

Is it possible to have that space after you stand up? Lord knows that I've had issues in the past, and in my experience, just keeping the "sitting mind" for a couple of breaths longer after each sitting does wonders; learning that sitting and standing are fundamentally the same is not the least of which.

Metta,

Perry

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Restraint

Hey Chet,

Well, I'll tell you my experience. I, too, have some trouble with catering to my anger and temper. I have, recently (the last year or so) been better able to modify it to where it's not so bad. For me, it all started with trying to figure out why I got so mad. I came to the conclusion that I had some idea in my head of right or wrong. Very black or white. And what I thought was "well right is right, and that means it's right for everyone. It is my responsibility to ensure that what is right is being followed by the people around me." That went for all types of things. Someone says something I regard as unintelligent, I would immediately let them know that they were wrong and how to think, act, behave correctly (to my way of thinking). I did it with my wife, and my kids too. I would get upset and angry with some of the things they did, and fly into a tirade, because I would think, "I don't ask for much, so what I do ask for had better be done." My responses were immediate.

After a while I started thinking that maybe, just maybe, I was doing something wrong. After all the natural state of a person can't be to be angry all the time, right? This also coincided with the beginnings of my practice, so I had some support from that front. When I finally came to the realization that there was no set "right and wrong" that I was following my own opinion, just like every body else, I started trying to look at things in terms of "helpful and harmful". I realized pretty quickly which one of those my own actions were falling under more often than not. So I would watch for it. Some one would do something I didn't like and that familiar feeling would start, the heat in my guts would spread up to my face and through my limbs, but this time I just sort of said, "Ok." I think my kids broke something. I just sort of looked at it, realized they broke it and flipping out wasn't going to put it back together, and if I flipped out they'd just remember the flipping out and not that I wanted them to have more respect for things. It was a struggle, because I wanted to yell, to assuage my insulted ego, but I consciously did not. I spoke calmly, and got my point across, and after a little while the anger drained away, and I was left with a broken thing-a-majiggy and two boys who understood that they need to have more respect for other people's things.

This is not to say that I don't "fall off the wagon". I do. I still get angry, and sometimes I still yell. But it happens less these days, and I'm slowly allowing it to come to a place of balance. Anger and the temper have often been compared to a fire, and I find that apropos, because if you feed a fire too much, fan the flames to often, it gets too big, too hot, it consumes everything near it and spreads out of control. But, if tended appropriately, not feeding it so little that the flames die out and all you are left with is a cold, useless pit of ashes and charcoal, nor so much that it becomes a conflagration, you can keep it to a comfortable level. Anger is a part of the human condition, an emotion we can't get rid of. That's why I like our precepts, which don't say, "Thou shalt not be angry" but rather to refrain from anger. This to me says that we should acknowledge it as a thread woven into the tapestry that makes us human, but not to succumb to its lure to the point that it now controls our thoughts. As Buddha said, "with our thoughts we make the world", so angry thoughts, angry world.

But we are all far from perfect. And I think of my own work with my anger as a "work in progress".

[Shogen]

Re: Restraint

Hey guys,

Restraint is something I struggle with - not so much in my formal zazen practice, but certainly when I'm not sitting zazen.

Zazen is an interesting example of sometimes strong feelings not necessarily needing action or commentary - it's very needed lesson for me. But restraint in the face of strong attachments off the cushion is something I fail at more often then not.

Any advice?

Chet

Hi Chet,
In the face of our greatest obstacles we humans seem to overcome them when we become determined. You have defined your problem very well and that's the first step in changing it. With great determination anything seems possible and without it nothing does. Mediocre determination also fosters mediocre results. Do you lack the proper determination doesn't require an answer, just personal evaluation. Good luck and great to see you back on the forum. Gassho, Zak

[Ankai]

Re: Restraint

Just speaking for myself, as a result of too many years of war, I have been prone to anger- even rage- issues. (rage and anger are VERY different things. You can talk to anger, reason with anger. You cannot reason with rage. It just makes it worse, because while an angry person might actually be "right," a person in a rage is way past "right and wrong," but WANTS to still be "right," knows he really has blown it, and is tangled in an empotional net of anger, shame, guilt, self pity, etc...) It's easy to "blow up" when confronted, and it's insidious- it "feels" right at the time. Having to go from an environment where "Shoot him in the face" was literally an acceptable response, where being trained for violence and using one's negative feelings can actually SAVE lives to the "real" world where all that does is damage self, others, reputation, credibility, and relationships has been hard.
Thich Nhat Hanh, a person who has certainly had reason to be angry, has written extensively on how to recognize and then "care for" welling anger as if it were a small child... "Hello, anger, I know you. You are my old friend..." See, anger may not actually be "wrong" to feel. It's acting on it that is wrong, just as it's wrong and self damaging to act on any strong negative emotion. Little things... I don't have to hate someone who wrongs me. I don't have to get mad at someone who disagrees with me. I don't have to act tough when my ideas are thought wrong... and so on. None of our reactions to these things is going to do anything but escalate both the situation AND our own negative feelings. If I yell at a guy who cut me off in traffic, he'll yell back... then where anm I? If people don't like an idea I've offered, and I get petulant, pissed, or confrontational about it, they're even less likely to hear me or respect my idea(s) now or later. I can FEEL angry, hurt, whatever... but that WILL go away, as long as I don't compound the problem by acting on my anger, hurt pride, ego, whatever.
I have found that the emptiness of the cushion (or walking meditation, work meditation, or just a couple of minutes focusing on the breath in the men's locker room,) has helped my own introspection, and helped me identify not only the anger that might well up, but it's real causes.
Don't know if everyone's experience is like this, or if any of this even means anything to anyone else. I do know I haven't been in a fight or punched a wall or thrown a tantrum in years, and for me, that's a good thing and it works.

[Taigu]

Re: Restraint

Deep bows to you, my teacher.

Very humbling and so true. Memories.

My dad and his guns...Another man torn by war but he didn't know better.

Thank you for this


gassho


T.

[Ankai]

Re: Restraint

Deep bows to you, my teacher.

Very humbling and so true. Memories.

My dad and his guns...Another man torn by war but he didn't know better.

Thank you for this


gassho


T.

Bows back for a lesson you just taught me without knowing it.

[ghop]

Re: Restraint

Chet,

You seem to be suffering from an inflated ego. Don't worry. It is a common ailment. In fact, we all have it. You just seem to have a little more hot air in yours.

While it is a painful condition, it is curable. Zazen is good medicine. But it is only part of the prescription. The other part is the practice of morality. Without morality our sitting becomes stale and pointless. We are no better than a frog. Even worse. You give hints sometimes that you are interested in non-dualistic thinking. This is good. But still, without the practice of morality, it is cold and useless. What is the point of knowing who you are if it doesn't affect how you are?

All of us have our own personal set of circumstances. I don't know what yours are. It's easy to tell someone to act a certain way. But you have to know where that person is coming from. I don't know Chet. I only know disastermouse. I'm only about 1/10 of the real Greg on Treeleaf. I'm sure the same goes for you. Sometimes I act abrasive on this forum because I need an outlet. Maybe I'm up against somethint in my real life that I can't deal with head on. So I take it out on people I never have to look at face to face. Kinda like kicking the dog because your boss called you a turd. It isn't fair, but it's human. The zafu is so comfortable and dangerous because we don't have to change anything for those minutes that we sit. We can be Jekyll and Hyde [i]and[i] the narrator, all at the same time. It is liberating. We see what a drama our life is. And we see how we create that drama with our thoughts.

So try this.

In an emotianlly charged situation, when you find it difficult to concentrate on giving your best,
pretend you are an actor on a stage. Play the role of someone who is detached and give
your best to your performance.

If someone contradicts you, just sit back and watch; it's all part of the play.

This isn't hypocritical. Anger, resentment, judgement, using rude language,
these are hypocritical.

When we play the role of someone who is detached, who is kind, we are really just learning
to be ourselves.

This may sound ridiculous but it works. Try it for yourself.

gassho (and give yourself a break)
Greg

[disastermouse]

Re: Restraint

Chet,

You seem to be suffering from an inflated ego. Don't worry. It is a common ailment. In fact, we all have it. You just seem to have a little more hot air in yours.

While it is a painful condition, it is curable. Zazen is good medicine. But it is only part of the prescription. The other part is the practice of morality. Without morality our sitting becomes stale and pointless. We are no better than a frog. Even worse. You give hints sometimes that you are interested in non-dualistic thinking. This is good. But still, without the practice of morality, it is cold and useless. What is the point of knowing who you are if it doesn't affect how you are?

It has affected how I am. I haven't been suicidal in years. I haven't had a full borderline break in years either. I was just thinking about this, actually - how much more 'normal' my life is than it was when I started sitting zazen when I was 19. As for the little tantrums I've had here, they ARE part of my real personality - and I think part of why a sangha has been good is that all of who I am comes out here. I really can be as unhinged as I come across in some of my posts here.

All of us have our own personal set of circumstances. I don't know what yours are. It's easy to tell someone to act a certain way. But you have to know where that person is coming from. I don't know Chet. I only know disastermouse. I'm only about 1/10 of the real Greg on Treeleaf. I'm sure the same goes for you. Sometimes I act abrasive on this forum because I need an outlet. Maybe I'm up against somethint in my real life that I can't deal with head on. So I take it out on people I never have to look at face to face. Kinda like kicking the dog because your boss called you a turd. It isn't fair, but it's human. The zafu is so comfortable and dangerous because we don't have to change anything for those minutes that we sit. We can be Jekyll and Hyde [i]and[i] the narrator, all at the same time. It is liberating. We see what a drama our life is. And we see how we create that drama with our thoughts.

So try this.

In an emotianlly charged situation, when you find it difficult to concentrate on giving your best,
pretend you are an actor on a stage. Play the role of someone who is detached and give
your best to your performance.

If someone contradicts you, just sit back and watch; it's all part of the play.

This isn't hypocritical. Anger, resentment, judgement, using rude language,
these are hypocritical.

When we play the role of someone who is detached, who is kind, we are really just learning
to be ourselves.

This may sound ridiculous but it works. Try it for yourself.

gassho (and give yourself a break)
Greg

Is it inflated ego? Maybe, but I've noticed that more than overall inflation, where all rebuffs would engender overreactions, instead it seems distorted - some sorts of jabs or imagined jabs will trigger a response and I'm halfway through it or have gone all the way through it before I recognize the distortion - but then other times they don't. It's often the inconsistency that creates a lack of trust in myself that consistent, ego-inflated responses might not.

I don't know if that makes any sense or not, but if it was a more consistent problem it would be easier to formulate a strategy to address it....

And then other times, it seems like 'formulating a strategy' is a fools gambit anyway. The only thing I'm really thankful about regarding this is that it thankfully does seem to be diminishing with time and practice.

Chet

[Ankai]

Re: Restraint

It has affected how I am. I haven't been suicidal in years. I haven't had a full borderline break in years either. I was just thinking about this, actually - how much more 'normal' my life is than it was when I started sitting zazen when I was 19. As for the little tantrums I've had here, they ARE part of my real personality - and I think part of why a sangha has been good is that all of who I am comes out here. I really can be as unhinged as I come across in some of my posts here.

Well, for me, the point is, when I have these outbursts or tantrums, here or elsewhere in my day to day life, am I making a point to those I want to? No. Am I affecting anything for the better? No. Is my temper going to make me right? No. So... in the self gratification that this stuff really is, who is it that actually gets hurt... me, or the person walking away looking at me and thinking, "What an asshole!"?
What you say is true... these things ARE a part of our real personalities... but our personalities ARE NOT set and fixed in stone, any more than our minds are. If what I present to the world is an asshole, it's up to me to change both the presentation and the internal causation. That isn't hypocrisy, acting, or "not being real." It's maturity, acceptance, and effort to be something more.

[disastermouse]

Re: Restraint

It has affected how I am. I haven't been suicidal in years. I haven't had a full borderline break in years either. I was just thinking about this, actually - how much more 'normal' my life is than it was when I started sitting zazen when I was 19. As for the little tantrums I've had here, they ARE part of my real personality - and I think part of why a sangha has been good is that all of who I am comes out here. I really can be as unhinged as I come across in some of my posts here.

Well, for me, the point is, when I have these outbursts or tantrums, here or elsewhere in my day to day life, am I making a point to those I want to? No. Am I affecting anything for the better? No. Is my temper going to make me right? No. So... in the self gratification that this stuff really is, who is it that actually gets hurt... me, or the person walking away looking at me and thinking, "What an asshole!"?
What you say is true... these things ARE a part of our real personalities... but our personalities ARE NOT set and fixed in stone, any more than our minds are. If what I present to the world is an asshole, it's up to me to change both the presentation and the internal causation. That isn't hypocrisy, acting, or "not being real." It's maturity, acceptance, and effort to be something more.

I was responding to ghop's statement that he only puts out a small part of who he really is here. I think a lot of 'who I really am' comes across here. I wasn't trying to defend the behavior.

*gassho*

Chet

[ghop]

Re: Restraint

It has affected how I am.

That's great! Not everyone can say that. Most people aren't even aware that they need improvement. They just dump blame on everyone else. Be thankful that there is change.

As for the little tantrums I've had here, they ARE part of my real personality

Bullshit. You don't know your real personality. The tantrums are a result of your real personality getting bullied by an inflated ego. You want release and can't find a way out. So you attack. It's normal. But it's also insane. It's what we are all doing.

The only thing I'm really thankful about regarding this is that it thankfully does seem to be diminishing with time and practice.

That in itself should give you some relief. It shows you that it isn't real. Anything real doesn't come and go. And you say this is diminishing with time and practice. So what is left? Your real personality. Not the tantrums. Not the confusion. Just a simple awareness. Look Chet! You say you are aware of the tantrums...and of things getting better...and...but what counts is the fact that you are aware. Just be that. That is the eye of the storm. Nothing can shake it.

gassho
Greg