Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

[ghop]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

Perhaps you would be interested in 'Mizu no Kokoro', mind like water.

Thanks, man. Wow, that's alot to take in.

I read where someone said (I forget who)

Mind is like water

put shit in it and you get shit-water

put vegetables in it and you get soup

leave it alone and you get clear water

no thinking, no mind, no mind, no problem

gassho
Greg

[Amelia]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

I have only read the first post, forgive me, but I felt compelled to respond.

After having practiced many different types of meditation for a few years, though I am no expert, the stillness which is the goal feels the same in every style.

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

Thanks, man. Wow, that's alot to take in.

I read where someone said (I forget who)

Mind is like water

put shit in it and you get shit-water

put vegetables in it and you get soup

leave it alone and you get clear water

no thinking, no mind, no mind, no problem

You're welcome Greg!
And I laughed! :lol:
Although I didn't get the soup part. Too profound for me I guess.

Gassho,
Pontus

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

After having practiced many different types of meditation for a few years, though I am no expert, the stillness which is the goal feels the same in every style.

I haven't done that many kinds of meditation, but I agree. Samadhi is samadhi. Even though you are concentrating on the breathing instead of doing Shikantaza, eventually, as you drop body and mind, the breathing drops away too and what you end up with is the same. I just happen to like Shikantaza very much (unfortunately).

Gassho,
Pontus

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

I think that rivers are a great metaphor for life and our particular practice. If you look at a river, it has slow spots and fast spots, high water lines and low water marks, sometimes calm and even, sometimes rapid and frightening. All the same water, all the same river. The tranquil peace of a placid stream or the savage beauty of a raging river equally amazing.

All rivers also empty into the sea, some connect directly, some have to seep into the ground and emerge somewhere else before they join the ocean, taking different paths. Full of life, storms, tides, all different, all the same. Every drop of water touches every continent in the world and the rain that falls on us all, that becomes the life giving water we drink, comes from the water evaporated from these lakes, streams, rivers, and oceans. All connected.

Life is like that. All different, all the same, all connected even if not immediately apparent. The good, the bad, the ugly; all reflections of each other. The things in life that we think of as “good” ultimately are connected to and part of the things we consider “bad”. In the end, the rain just falls, completely and wholly rain. Its journey from calm to rapid to sea to rain, just completely what it is. Just a river, just an ocean, just a sutra.

Just life.

JohnsonCM wrote:
Flowing like water is flowing like a lazy river on good days, and flowing like rapids on bad days, all still flowing.

Thank you for this. I will carry it with me for a long time.

Thank you, I’m honored that you would consider doing that. But also, don’t get too hung up on these words, they are only the boat, don’t carry them with you after you reach the other shore, and our way reminds us not to take things too seriously. It’s possible that I wrote that because I just bought a kayak………. ops:

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

This business of carrying boats and kayaks and words made me think of this old Zen story!

Two monks were traveling together, an older monk and a younger monk. They noticed a young woman at the edge of a stream, afraid to cross. The older monk picked her up, carried her across the stream and put her down safely on the other side. The younger monk was astonished, but he didn't say anything until their journey was over. "Why did you carry that woman across the stream? Monks aren't supposed to touch any member of the opposite sex." said the younger monk. The older monk replied "I left her at the edge of the river, are you still carrying her?"

[Amelia]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

After having practiced many different types of meditation for a few years, though I am no expert, the stillness which is the goal feels the same in every style.

I haven't done that many kinds of meditation, but I agree. Samadhi is samadhi. Even though you are concentrating on the breathing instead of doing Shikantaza, eventually, as you drop body and mind, the breathing drops away too and what you end up with is the same. I just happen to like Shikantaza very much (unfortunately).

Gassho,
Pontus

I am starting to prefer Shikantaza, as well. Starting a meditation off with tricks that used to get me going, now just seem to get in the way of what I already know to be the goal. However, I am always doing Shikantaza in many postures.

[Jundo]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

Perhaps you would be interested in 'Mizu no Kokoro', mind like water.

Here's one essay I found to be quite enjoyable:
http://www.trans4mind.com/counterpoint/ ... per3.shtml

Mizu no Kokoro - A Mind Like Water
By Vincent Paul Cooper

Water. The vital element that is the difference between life and death. At one moment life-giving and nurturing, only to change in the blink of an eye to a chaotic, destructive force of nature.
In the East, and in Japan in particular, perhaps because it is an island, water has been used symbolically in philosophy for centuries. The pond, representative of nature's lakes, is a common and important feature of many Japanese gardens. Alternatively, the carefully raked sand of austere gardens found in some Zen temples also betray the influence of water, with the sand symbolizing the ocean. References to water in one form or another can be found throughout Japanese literature and philosophy, but one phrase in particular that stands out is Mizu no Kokoro, or 'a mind like water'.

The phrase Mizu no Kokoro is sometimes translated as 'a mind like still water' but I find this to be inaccurate and unable to convey a fuller meaning. It should also be noted that the word kokoro in Japanese properly speaking means heart / mind with the implication that our emotional life (of the heart) and our rational life (of the mind) are intertwined and not separated as we tend to distinguish between them in the West.

With that background filled in, let's take a look at what Mizu no Kokoro means and how meditating upon it can be of value to your life and development.

Calm Water
The first thing that Mizu no Kokoro teaches us is that when water is calm there are no ripples. There is no disturbance. The surface of a lake appears perfectly still. On one level of understanding, this is how we should aim to make our mind: perfectly still, calm, collected and relaxed. This is the mind of insight; the mind that has given up its internal dialogue and has nothing more to say but rather acts as an observer, its awareness extending beyond the phenomenal world. It is neutral and is unable to distinguish between 'right' and 'wrong' or 'good' and 'evil'.

In more practical terms, this particular state of Mizu no Kokoro is able to show calmness in the face of adversity. It is the mind unruffled by events and the stresses of life. Summoning an image of a still, pristine lake in your mind when you are confronted by the hassle that life brings you is a great way to train yourself to remain calm.

Ripples
When the surface of a lake is disturbed, ripples are created. Concentric rings spread out from the source of the disturbance. The water is no longer still and no longer calm. But the reaction of the water is measured. The water will never react in any way that is more or less necessary and proportional to the force of the causative agent. Water never over-reacts. Similarly, but with no less importance, it never under-reacts either. The reaction we witness is in perfect harmony with the initial disturbing action, neither more or less than is appropriate.

Here too we need to learn an important lesson from Mizu no Kokoro. Your reaction should be measured; an equal match to the situation. Too often people over-react. We see this all the time and it is obvious when we witness it. A person's reaction is completely over the top and is more often than not not directly connected to the event that sparks it off. Rather, the preceding event is the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back. Maybe that person has been having a bad day, barely keeping themselves in check and when something apparently minor happens an over-reaction is the result. The damage done in such moments can be life-altering. A harsh word to a child, spouse or friend that forever changes their perception of you. A physical attack that at the very least can leave the victim mentally scarred. An argument with your boss or a customer that leads to you losing your job.

Less obvious, but perhaps even more common, is the tendency to under-react. Here we touch on the distinction between Western and Japanese (broad) definitions of the functions of the heart and mind. In the West we are conditioned to keep our emotions in check except in very particular environments. Rationality rules. As described above, the term kokoro doesn't adequately separate mind and heart. Neither our emotions nor our rationality are dominant. The suggestion is that an under-reaction is no less damaging to your self than an over-reaction. Therapists are forever kept busy with patients who have successfully buried their emotions deep inside themselves for a variety of (rational or self-rationalized) reasons. The result is a damaged psyche.

Mizu no Kokoro teaches us that your reaction should be appropriate, neither an over- or an under-reaction. Your reaction must arise from inside you. It should be natural to you. How one person reacts to a spilt coffee will be different to the next person. Only you know what your true reaction is. This requires self-awareness and an ability to harmonize with yourself.

When your reaction is complete and has exhausted itself, return to the calm mind you would otherwise normally keep, just as the surface of the lake becomes pristine once again.

When Calmness Returns
Water then can quickly change from a state of stillness to movement and back to stillness.

It is vital to recognize that 'a mind like water' is reactive NOT passive.

Maintaining your 'cool' while your carefully constructed life is collapsing around you is not what this teaching is about, though unfortunately that is sometimes the message taken from it when the phrase mizu no kokoro is translated as 'a mind like still water'. This is not about passively accepting whatever fate throws at you. But neither is it about dominating your environment. Rather, it is – simple in theory, very difficult in practice – to react appropriately, from your inner self, to events in your life.

We can see this clearly when we watch masters of different martial arts. Their actions are almost childlike in appearance (as compared to the theatrics of a Hollywood movie). Simple, direct, and always just enough to get the job done with no wasted energy. At this level their minds hardly appear to have been disturbed at the conscious level; rather their technique is born from the unconscious mind.

When disturbed, water reacts as much as it needs to…but never more than that. Soon after the water returns to its original condition of calmness. This is the lesson to learn and apply to your life.

Formless
One of the characteristics that water, like any liquid, has is the ability to adapt to a changing environment. A measure of water placed in different containers will immediately alter its shape to fit its new surroundings.

The life lesson here from Mizu no Kokoro is obvious: adapt to circumstances. Don't get trapped in old ways of thinking, however traditional they are and however well they may have served you in the past (or not, as the case may be when we witness others fail to understand that doing the same thing repeatedly will not produce different results). Anyone reading this on the internet no longer lives in a world of slow-paced change. At the age of 36, in my lifetime I have witnessed an immense technological revolution and there is no reason to think this will not continue into the future. People can expect to not only change jobs but entire careers several times throughout their life, with each step requiring new and additional training. An inability to be able to learn and apply new skills can be limiting to say the least. Worse, a refusal to face facts and acknowledge this new environment can spell disaster for yourself and your children.

Adapt to what life gives you. Harmonize with it, don't fight it. Realistically appraise what is going on and make the changes necessary to allow you to continue living your life in a comfortable manner. Does this mean you should be a victim to circumstances? No, not at all. Water is reactive, not passive. Adapt to your true nature and find your own path to walk, your own song to dance to, your own game to play.

Well, the theme of the little talk during our Zazenkai today was to be water!

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3398

I will bring some of these drops of wisdom into it .... going with the flow! 8) Thank you.

I hope it is not, as we say in English slang ... "all wet".

Gassho, Jundo

[Stephanie]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

Sparrow,

Part of the Buddha's life story is that when he first left the palace to seek wisdom, he studied with two well respected yogis of his time. Both were masters of mental disciples, and the Buddha was an apt student of both. He mastered all the mental disciplines they taught, including the ability to cultivate various samadhis and control the mind. But what the Buddha found was that no matter how much bliss he experienced in meditation, he still had not resolved the matter of suffering. He was still not at peace.

I can tell you from my own experience that cultivating concentration practice led to some nice experiences on the cushion, but it did not change my life in any way. It did not still the cycle of samsara or take away the inner darkness. Cultivating mental bliss states is the same as pursuing physical bliss in some key ways. Chasing after experiences that are pleasant is the definition of samsara.

And chasing after control is a game of illusion, a dead end. I can tell you that you are going in the wrong direction. Control does not bring peace or happiness. Surrender does. It is the illusory self that needs to define itself by deciding what fashion of spiritual practice makes its butt look best in the mirror that causes the intense suffering you describe.

You will not be able to control your way to what you seek. Open your mind to that now and you will save yourself time and sorrow.

Stephanie

[Heisoku]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

Thank you Stephanie that’s right...we do not need or really have any ‘control’, however shikantaza does allows us to see our life as something different.
I am drawn back to the current water metaphor. ops:
In ocean waves, a wave of energy travels through water. Antarctic storms create waves that travel south to north, the length of the Pacific, to break in Alaska as ripples that have fanned out over hundreds of miles along the Alaskan Pacific coast.
The breaking of the wave is the only point at which the energy of the wave actually moves the water, thus breaking its relationship with the water as it transferred onto the beach and into the air as sound.
The energy of ‘our life’ thus travels through our bodies, undetected or apparently invisible, and is only seen as ‘water’, our bodies, the cells of which are constantly being exchanged with our environment (the whole body totally exchanges every 7 years or so). Now it has been shown that waves interfere and merge as they travel, just as our lives do. Shikantaza allows us to merge rather than interfere, allows us to be the energy rather than the water, to flow and let water be.

I'm not sure that the analogy is a total fit but please feel free to amend!

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

Yes, Stephanie, your words ring true. To us. But before one has realized the truth behind those words, all they can do it maybe plant a seed. As you say, we can't control our thoughts and emotions by wrestling with them, trying to discipline them, keeping them away by force. It's the same with trying to control humans. As Suzuki says in Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, the best way to control a person is to give him freedom, (like giving an ox a large pasture to graze on) keep watch over him and not try to lock him in.

So I think Sparrow may need to continue his frantic search for stillness for a while yet, running in this direction and that, trying this path and that, before he can feel the truth of your words in his marrow, that the solution is right there in front of him.

And sadly, that is the case with all of us I believe. :cry:

/Pontus

[The Sparrow]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

...So I think Sparrow may need to continue his frantic search for stillness for a while yet, running in this direction and that, trying this path and that, before he can feel the truth of your words in his marrow, that the solution is right there in front of him...

Pretty much all the different faiths or paths believe theirs is the only one true solution

[Rich]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

...So I think Sparrow may need to continue his frantic search for stillness for a while yet, running in this direction and that, trying this path and that, before he can feel the truth of your words in his marrow, that the solution is right there in front of him...

Pretty much all the different faiths or paths believe theirs is the only one true solution

I think the important thing is that you find your true path and make it your own. Then you won't need yogis or buddhas or jesus . But if one degree of separation remains you will have to practice something like everyone here is trying to do.

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

...So I think Sparrow may need to continue his frantic search for stillness for a while yet, running in this direction and that, trying this path and that, before he can feel the truth of your words in his marrow, that the solution is right there in front of him...

Pretty much all the different faiths or paths believe theirs is the only one true solution

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that our practice is the only true one. There are many paths up the same mountain! All practicioners prefer their path of course, but especially in the buddhist world, I believe many see the similarities between the different traditions.

/Pontus

[Rich]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

...So I think Sparrow may need to continue his frantic search for stillness for a while yet, running in this direction and that, trying this path and that, before he can feel the truth of your words in his marrow, that the solution is right there in front of him...

Pretty much all the different faiths or paths believe theirs is the only one true solution

I think the important thing is that you find your true path and make it your own. Then you won't need yogis or buddhas or jesus . But if one degree of separation remains you will have to practice something like everyone here is trying to do.

Actually the something is no thing which is just sitting.