Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

[Guest]

How's that for a grabber op?

Actually I'm just trying to describe what my practice sorta is right now.
I fully realize that this may not even qualify as Zazen, but I'm not terribly concerned about that.
Basically I sit and 'pay attention' to a kind of pinpoint single 'spot' somewhere vaguely in my center, and I use that focus as a way of finding the silent space 'between' my thoughts until I can be separate from them and they quiet down. That space of absolute stillness and absence of thought/subjectiveness is where I try to reside.

Thoughts?

[Taylor]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

A thought for non-thought:

If there is space at this moment, rest in that space. If there is no space to be found in this moment, rest in no space. It's easy to get caught up in looking for that space, it feels like it should be "right", and to push away went there is no space because it feels "wrong" or "not Zen". I'm guilty of it from time to time but then the ordinary comes back to surprise me.

Gassho,
Taylor (Myoken)

[Jundo]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

How's that for a grabber op?

Actually I'm just trying to describe what my practice sorta is right now.
I fully realize that this may not even qualify as Zazen, but I'm not terribly concerned about that.
Basically I sit and 'pay attention' to a kind of pinpoint single 'spot' somewhere vaguely in my center, and I use that focus as a way of finding the silent space 'between' my thoughts until I can be separate from them and they quiet down. That space of absolute stillness and absence of thought/subjectiveness is where I try to reside.

Thoughts?

Thoughts and no thought. Non thoughts.

That is a flavor of meditation, but perhaps not Shikantaza as taught in this corner of the meditating world. Let me explain why.

Shikantaza is a strange bird ...

We are not seeking absolute stillness nor a total absence of thoughts and subjectiveness. However, there are times of absolute stillness and total absence of thoughts, and of the complete dropping of all subjectiveness. Or, better said, in our way, there are such timeless times and there are not such times.

We reject none of it, all Shikantaza.

I would describe the flavor of "Shikantaza" which is taught here as "open, spacious awareness concentration, focused on everything and nothing in particular" instead of a "one point concentration" which some attempt to build through focus on a Koan, Mantra, and sometimes the breath or the like. In each case, there is "concentration" that is at the core, but of very different focus. Our way might be called "boundless abiding with equanimity" more than a hard "one pointed" concentration in which, for example, the mind is concentrated fixidly on a particular target.

I wrote this as part of our "Zazen for Beginners (we're all beginners)" series, which I ask you to review.

viewforum.php?f=20

I often use the analogy of clouds (of thought and emotions) drifting in and out of a clear, blue spacious sky (a mind open and clear of thoughts).Our mind in Zazen may be compared to the sky; We are open, clear, spacious, boundless, like the clear blue sky… Our attention is focused on everything and nothing in particular, just as the sky covers all the world without discrimination… Thoughts, like clouds, often come and go.

Clouds drift in and out, that is natural. However, we bring our attention again and again (10,000 times and 10,000 times again) to the open, blue sky between, allowing the clouds of thought to drift away. More clouds will come, and so we repeat the process endlessly, once more and once more bringing our attention back to the blue sky… to the open spaces between thoughts.

However, this is important to bear in mind:

We do not try to “silence the thoughts forcefully” in Skikantaza. It is more that we allow the thoughts that naturally drift into mind to naturally drift out of mind, much as clouds naturally drift in and out of a clear blue sky. In this way, return again and again to the open, clear blue sky. Although we seek to appreciate the blue, open sky between the clouds, we do not resent or despise the clouds of thought that drift through our mind. We are not disturbed by them, we do not actively chase them out, neither do we welcome them, focus on them, play with them or stir them up. We allow them to pass, and return our focus once more to the quiet blue. 10,000 times and 10,000 times again.

As in the real sky, both blue expanse and clouds are at home there. We should reject neither, not think the blue somehow “truer” than the clouds. In fact, some days will be very cloudy, some days totally blue … both are fine. We never say “this cloudy day is not good because there is no blue sky today.” When the sky is blue and empty, let it be so. When the sky is cloudy, our mind filled with thoughts, let it be so. You see, even when hidden by clouds, the blue is there all along. Both the blue sky and the clouds are the sky … do not seek to break up the sky by rejecting any part of it. (In other words, do not think one good and the other bad). WE DO NOT SEEK TO BREAK UP OR RESIST ANY PART OF THE SKY, CLOUDS OR BLUE… It is all the unbroken sky.

Nonetheless, though we reject neither, we allow the clouds to drift from mind and return our attention again and again to the blue. Throughout, we are awake, aware and alert, conscious and present… we are not in some mysterious or extreme state. Nor are we dull, feeling lifeless or listless, for we should feel as illuminated, vibrant, boundless and all encompassing as the open sky itself.

The clouds of thought and the clear blue are not two, are simultaneously functioning and whole … a single sky. This is our way in ‘Just Sitting’ Shikantaza Zazen. When you see the clouds, be as if you are thereby seeing the clouds as blue. When you see the blue, you may also see the blue as clouds. In fact, as you advance in this practice, you will find that the blue sky illuminates, shines through the clouds… and we can come to experience both together… both thoughts and silence… as one.

Well, in our view, people can get too caught up in seeking for only stillness, no thought or the dropping of subject/object. They can come to think that only the experience of such way is true, which also makes it rather hard to take this practice off the Zafu and back into the world of thoughts and confusion, where there is no breath or center point to focus on.

Please also review these little essays on Shikantaza ...

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1451

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2816

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2666

After you watch and read the above, let us know what you think ... and don't think. Non-think.

That does not mean that you need change your practice if it is working for you, working in life. However, Shikantaza is what is taught around this little place.

Gassho, Jundo

[Taigu]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

Hi Sparrow,

Pinpoint kind of concentration is not it. Open, open. Vast space is cosy, unobstructed. Please, don't stiffen your body mind, flow like water, act like mountain, be space.


gassho

Taigu

[Seiryu]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

Drop all ideas of what you think zen/Shinkantaza is.
just sit and be.
Be and sit.

Drop the Concept "sitting" Just be.
Drop the concept "Being"

Let things flow as is. Become that flow, become that space.


Gassho

Seiryu

[ghop]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

flow like water, act like mountain, be space.

This is one of those pithy instructions that seem simple, yet are so deep I never reach bottom.

It's carrying this instruction from my zafu to my life that gives me problems. "Mother, should I build a wall?" sang Pink Floyd. How do I find space in a traffic jam? How do I act like a mountain when all I can think about is escaping myself through alcohol? How do I flow like water when the hours ahead hold inescapeable suffering?

In a traffic jam I might notice how beautiul the sky looks today. In the midst of wanting that one drink that will be one too many and nowhere near enough I might remember the beautiful eyes of my daughter, and how she says, "But I love you." When tomorrow holds pain that I can't get out of I might remember my father singing in the shower as his hair falls out into the drain from cancer treatments.

And yet, I always bitch when my computer freezes. :roll: Still so far to go for a guy who is "already there."

gassho
Greg

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

It's a good way of calming down and it's a good way to improve your concentration!
Most of us do this from time to time, often at the beginning of Zazen, on days when our minds are especially active. Often people concentrate on the breathing, even counting the breaths. If you let this point of attention be the hara, the center of the body a little below the navel, you will also have an easier time learning to breath with your diaphragm, 'with your hara'.

As our teachers have pointed out, it might not exactly be Shikantaza though. And as Seiryu has pointed out the trick is dropping body and mind rather than pinpointing your concentration on something in particular. Instead our attention should be on everything and nothing. This is the hard part. And at the same time very easy. Just let go of everything. You now how hard it can be to relax your muscles sometimes? It's the same with the mind. With practice it gets easier. Distance yourself. Let go of emotions. When thoughts arise, don't get upset, just watch them and they will float away. Let your gaze be serene, looking at distant mountains, not focusing on anything. Trust in your stable position. When your mind relaxes, so does your body and vice versa. Often it is when my mind wanders or I start to get drowsy, but I realise that and return to Shikantaza, that I suddenly sink deeper into Samadhi, rather than when I sit unaware of any thoughts. And sometimes thereäs no Samadhi at all, and that's perfect Zazen too.

Just return time after time to that awareness of everything and nothing, dropping of body and mind, opening the hand of thought or whatever you want to call it, and that is it. That is practice, Shikantaza.

These are just the impressions of another beginner practicioner, so take it with a grain or salt!
Good luck!

/Pontus

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

"Mother, should I build a wall?" sang Pink Floyd.

We already built the wall!

Blue Cliff Record case 57: "Before you have penetrated, it seems like a silver mountain, an iron wall. Once you have penetrated, it turn out your own self is the iron wall, the silver mountain."

To pass through the wall, you have to become the wall. To find space in the traffic jam, you have to be space.

And no one ever said it was going to be easy. :cry: :evil: :wink:

Gassho,
/Pontus

[ghop]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

We already built the wall!

And zazen can be just another brick in the wall, or a doorway into clear, open space. :wink:

Thanks for the insight Pontus.

gassho
Greg

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

And zazen can be just another brick in the wall, or a doorway into clear, open space. :wink:

Not so sure about Zazen being possibly another brick in the wall, but maybe you're right! Could be me grasping after Zazen. :lol: Instead of the picture of a doorway that you kind of punch through the wall, I would prefer the picture of becoming the wall or realising there is no wall, or that the wall is empty, depending on how you look at it. But I understand what you mean!

Thanks for the insight Pontus.

Mostly deluded ramblings and idle chatter mixed with others peoples insights (or delusions), but you're welcome! :mrgreen:

/Pontus

[Jinyu]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

Open, open. Vast space is cosy, unobstructed. Please, don't stiffen your body mind, flow like water, act like mountain, be space.

Simply beautiful! Thank you Taigu for sharing the taste of ... space and mountains.

gassho,
jinyu

[The Sparrow]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

Thanks for responding all.

Perhaps what I am most interested in (at this point) is just plain cultivating a kind of mental discipline. Without the strength to have single point awareness and control of my mind, I often spin into almost manic highs and lows. My emotions are so strong and intense, without a kind of rigid control and discipline over my thoughts, I simply ride a rollercoaster of fantastic highs, and then terrible lows.

Like I said, what I'm doing isn't Zazen, and there are only a certain subset of buddhist concepts that really resonate with me, but out of the various buddhist sects, ...just sitting appeals to me most.

Its quite possible though, that instead, I maybe should be involved in some sort of martial art? Just the mental part though?

Not really sure, and just searching. You folks seem to have developed a great little community though, and I congratulate you on it.

[ghop]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

Perhaps what I am most interested in (at this point) is just plain cultivating a kind of mental discipline. Without the strength to have single point awareness and control of my mind, I often spin into almost manic highs and lows. My emotions are so strong and intense, without a kind of rigid control and discipline over my thoughts, I simply ride a rollercoaster of fantastic highs, and then terrible lows.

Like I said, what I'm doing isn't Zazen, and there are only a certain subset of buddhist concepts that really resonate with me, but out of the various buddhist sects, ...just sitting appeals to me most.

Its quite possible though, that instead, I maybe should be involved in some sort of martial art? Just the mental part though?

Not really sure, and just searching. You folks seem to have developed a great little community though, and I congratulate you on it.

Well, online or not, we are a Sangha. And that in itself says alot. Helps me with my own "highs and lows." You mention riding a roller coaster...and I can't help but remember one of my favorite talks by Jundo about how our practice is just that...riding the roller coaster of life (don't mean to sound trite)...when high just be high...when low just be low...are we riding life or is life riding us...BOTH!!! This pathless path is amazing. Martial art may imply aggression. Just sit. There really is nothing else you need to do. Like me, you will find out more about yourself than you ever thought possible, than you ever wanted to. Then work with that. This work goes on forever. There is no end to how much we can grow. And yet, from a Zen perspective, there is nothing to learn, nowhere to go, nothing to change. Crazy wisdom at its best. :shock:

gassho
and good luck
Greg

[Ankai]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

Its quite possible though, that instead, I maybe should be involved in some sort of martial art? Just the mental part though?


Welcome to Shikantaza.

[The Sparrow]

Re: Pinpoint precision attention = no thoughts

It has occaisionally struck me that I may have a practice that has more in common with Yoga than Zen. Especially when I read articles like this:

http://exploring-life.ca/863/yoga-mental-modifications/