Public Sitting

[nealc]

Re: Public Sitting

i know this is a totally infeasible idea, but i was trying to glean whatever guidance jundo might've given on this subject in his "dana" post. it ends with:

Both donations and Samu work should be a bit beyond the point where it starts to hurt. In fact, it is even good to choose a volunteer activity that you resist ... hands on work with the sick, the abused or suffering.

choose an activity you resist! perhaps those who stand against a public, structured treeleaf sponsored activity should be the ones who ought to be doing it, and those who want to do it should specifically "not-do" it and instead do unstructured, abstract, private acts of samu that they resist in some way, "to the point where it starts to hurt."

i'll be here all week folks.

-neal

ps
that would definitely require me to do some public thing, which i really don't even want to think about! there's absolutely no way i could do that, i have so much other stuff to do, and i sort of don't believe these things accomplish very much, i think it's truly a misinterpretation of zen, i dont think buddha did that.. etc etc... quite spectacular...

[Ankai]

Re: Public Sitting

ps
that would definitely require me to do some public thing, which i really don't even want to think about! there's absolutely no way i could do that, i have so much other stuff to do, and i sort of don't believe these things accomplish very much, i think it's truly a misinterpretation of zen, i dont think buddha did that.. etc etc... quite spectacular...

Spectacular? Please. It cou;d be the simplest thing in the world. It wouldn't require you to do anything but to actually want to do something, and follow up.

[Ankai]

Re: Public Sitting

If people want to give money that is great and it will go for a local charity... but I won't ask! Having the name Treeleaf Sangha associated in this kind of thing is important!
Following the example Jundo has set from day one, I personally don't think anyone should ever donate a penny to Treeleaf. It's what we happy, sitting Zensters DO that matters.

[Ankai]

Re: Public Sitting

For me, that is bordering on proselytizing. For someone else knocking on doors and handing out Sutras may not be proselytizing. That too would be "offering people information that they may look at if they so wish, and either look more into the Teachings or line their garbage cans with it".


"Proselytizing." It has such an unbelievably negative ring, doesn't it?
How did we all hear about the Dharma? Because at some point, someone somewhere decided to DO something or SAY something or TEACH something in the Buddha's name.
We're not talikng about going door to door with magazines or Bibles. We're talking about helping people in a real, present way, where they are, right now.

About "proselytizing," the New Testament itself teaches, "If you say, "Go your way... be clothed... be filled!" but do not offer food or clothing, you have done nothing." I feel that way about most of the Weekend Warriors who knock at the door at ten A.M. on a Saturday in June. But what we are talking about is helping real people in real life, "where the rubber meets the road," (to use an expression of Jundo's.) There's a tremendous difference.

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Public Sitting

Maybe it would be good practice, for me personally. But I would feel like I was embarrassing the whole Zen community while I was doing it and therefore I wouldn't do it. But if I did and handed out a pamphlet saying "Welcome to Treeleaf, this is what we do!", would you feel you were represented in the right way?

I've been thinking about this question since you asked it, rolling it around in my mind. Here's what I have to say about it:

If this was for a good cause, and it generated real and true funds or interest or volunteers, or even people to be active in their own personal lives to support it (like the "Going Green" movement where you can switch out light bulbs for CFLs and watch water usage) I don't think I would want to be a part of a Zen community that became embarrassed over it. In that scenario, I would view the sangha as having confused the finger for the moon, finding it more necessary to protect and promote some sort of serious and solemn ideal of what a Zen priest or practitioner should be, instead of suffering (even though suffering in a tasty way) in order to act in a way that really helped others. I would probably say that if I saw a Zen Buddhist do such a thing, my first thought would be "Do you see him/her? Their practice is indeed deep. This person has dropped all thoughts of self and ego and simply sees a need in the world that they can help fill. This person is doing this without thought to reward or even comfort for themselves. I could learn something from this person." So, I suppose my answer would be "yes", I would feel that I was being represented in the right way, first by the fact that "I" personally am not being represented at all, as "I" is an ego creation. Second because this person would truly be living the bodhisattva vows.

Don't forget our first master became our first master because he laughed when Shakyamuni held a flower. Zen practitioners have been laughing ever since.

I'd like your opinion on this. Yes I know I will stir up another hornets nest, but perhaps a few hornets buzzing around reminding us that they are there is a good thing. Do you suppose that there are people who look at Thich Quang Duc (since we mentioned him not that long ago) and say, "Well, I don't like the man, he killed himself which is obviously un-Buddhist." Even though his sacrifice brought attention to the plight of Buddhists in Vietnam, and helped to correct social injustices that were every day occurrences for some? Do you feel that he did not represent Buddhism well because he violated the precept on not killing?

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Public Sitting

So, I suppose my answer would be "yes", I would feel that I was being represented in the right way, first by the fact that "I" personally am not being represented at all, as "I" is an ego creation. Second because this person would truly be living the bodhisattva vows.

Yes, I can see you really put some thought into this!
I don't think I would think any less of this particular buddhist with pie in his face either, and I find it liberating that you would feel you were being well represented by him or her. You say you are not being representated at all because "I" is an ego creation. This would mean that a) you have no ego, b) you are free from the influence of your ego or c) you have an ego that influences your feelings, but you refuse to acknowledge it due to delusion. Personally I have less of a problem with the pie throwing Zazen, because the picture I get of that practice is less self or ego promoting than the picture of the lonely Zen buddhist sitting serenly by a waterfall, spreading the dharma and collecting funds for a noble cause.

I'd like your opinion on this. Yes I know I will stir up another hornets nest, but perhaps a few hornets buzzing around reminding us that they are there is a good thing. Do you suppose that there are people who look at Thich Quang Duc (since we mentioned him not that long ago) and say, "Well, I don't like the man, he killed himself which is obviously un-Buddhist." Even though his sacrifice brought attention to the plight of Buddhists in Vietnam, and helped to correct social injustices that were every day occurrences for some? Do you feel that he did not represent Buddhism well because he violated the precept on not killing?

The hornets are mostly delusions anyway I suspect, so don't be afraid to stir them up! They may sting our egos for a while, but the pain will go away and as you say, it will remind us that they are there, even when they are hidden inside a nest. Generally speaking, I believe the precepts are not commandments, but general rules and recommendations that show us a what is in most cases a safe way up the mountain. But I'm sure there are better paths in some particular situations and terrains. And an expert mountain guide probably wouldn't have much use for these recommendations. He would know instantaniously and intuitively what path to take.

In general, I don't think suicide is good buddhistic practice, no. But I would delude myself if I thought I could judge in this particular case. Maybe you should make a separate thread? Or perhaps there is one already?

Gassho,
Pontus

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Public Sitting

You say you are not being representated at all because "I" is an ego creation. This would mean that a) you have no ego, b) you are free from the influence of your ego or c) you have an ego that influences your feelings, but you refuse to acknowledge it due to delusion.

Let us say that I am aware that it is there and I do my best to think from a place of clarity where the ego does not take control of my thoughts. I am certainly not yet free of it, just aware that it is there, and is a tricky little devil.

In general, I don't think suicide is good buddhistic practice, no. But I would delude myself if I thought I could judge in this particular case. Maybe you should make a separate thread? Or perhaps there is one already?

Oh, goodness. Yes there is indeed a thread on this already and it's a doozy. A touchy subject to say the least but many good conversations and perhaps no little understanding came from it. Though I may have forgotten to be mindful on a few of my posts.........

http://www.treeleaf.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3253

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Public Sitting

Personally I have less of a problem with the pie throwing Zazen, because the picture I get of that practice is less self or ego promoting than the picture of the lonely Zen buddhist sitting serenly by a waterfall, spreading the dharma and collecting funds for a noble cause.

Just to clarify, I would not be accepting money. No donations or anything like that. I would give the info to those who wanted it, and I would accept questions from those who ask them.

i know this is a totally infeasible idea, but i was trying to glean whatever guidance jundo might've given on this subject in his "dana" post. it ends with:

Both donations and Samu work should be a bit beyond the point where it starts to hurt. In fact, it is even good to choose a volunteer activity that you resist ... hands on work with the sick, the abused or suffering.

choose an activity you resist! perhaps those who stand against a public, structured treeleaf sponsored activity should be the ones who ought to be doing it, and those who want to do it should specifically "not-do" it and instead do unstructured, abstract, private acts of samu that they resist in some way, "to the point where it starts to hurt."

i'll be here all week folks.

-neal

ps
that would definitely require me to do some public thing, which i really don't even want to think about! there's absolutely no way i could do that, i have so much other stuff to do, and i sort of don't believe these things accomplish very much, i think it's truly a misinterpretation of zen, i dont think buddha did that.. etc etc... quite spectacular...

I think that these things leave an impression on people, especially in the West, where a sitting buddhist is not commonplace. That thought of seeing a person sitting zazen with a sign that said "Sitting for Children with Cancer" might stay in the back of their mind, and someone who wouldn't have given any consideration to helping before, might remember the time they saw a person sitting zazen and think about donating a little time or money. As for it being a misinterpretation of zen, the Buddha did exactly that. He only sat in public places where the suttras say hundreds of monks would attend his tieshos, where he would remind them of their Bodhisattva vows of charity and compassion.

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Public Sitting

Let us say that I am aware that it is there and I do my best to think from a place of clarity where the ego does not take control of my thoughts. I am certainly not yet free of it, just aware that it is there, and is a tricky little devil.

OK.

Oh, goodness. Yes there is indeed a thread on this already and it's a doozy. A touchy subject to say the least but many good conversations and perhaps no little understanding came from it. Though I may have forgotten to be mindful on a few of my posts.........

Ah! I will read it some time! Many things to read and all the time in the world, but only one moment at the time... Suicide is difficult subject in most religions and philosophies.

I have a special interest in the matter of life and death and precept of not killing through my line of work as an ICU doctor. You could say I have "killed" many people over the years. Never with the intent to kill though, only with the intent to do good. And luckily, so far I have been able to avoid killing anyone directly by mistake. But one day I know I will. And I have probably shortened the lives of several people unknowingly by making mistakes that I am still not aware of.

I hope and believe we have both gained at least some little understanding of the other person's practice and opinions. I feel I have said what I needed to say and I think you have been able to express your view as well, so for now I plan to withdraw from this interesting conversation. Otherwise it will only become an ego measurement contest and no good will come of it.

Good luck with the sitting!

Gassho,
Pontus

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Public Sitting

Just to clarify, I would not be accepting money. No donations or anything like that. I would give the info to those who wanted it, and I would accept questions from those who ask them.

Ah, OK. Maybe I misread!

[Shonin]

Re: Public Sitting

Christopher, what about simply sitting zazen with the sign representing yoru cause ( i believe you mentioned children with cancer). No pamphlet distribution. Let those who are curious come to you ( as i believe you mentioned) answer the questions as best you can and perhaps suggest something simple like " well if you are interested to know more then doing a simple search on google or whichever search engine you preferr is sure to come up with many resources and if you choose to give you can find a charity of your liking instead of me representing my personal choice".

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Public Sitting

That is also a good idea. The reason for the pamphlet would really be for informative purposes on how the disease affects children, the impact it has locally and or nationally, and that there are ways people can help, so I could just say something like

"Performing an internet search will return several charities and organizations that provide assistance. Please ensure you do your due diligence and check them out on your state's Secretary of State website and the Better Business Bureau."

That would leave the choice of charity much more in the hands of whoever came by.

I don't know that I'd want to get rid of the pamphlet all together though, because some folks may not realize the reach, hardship, or extent of childhood cancer, and providing that information may help them to realize how wide spread of a problem it truly is.

Great Idea, though. I think that I will go the route you suggest with the charities.

[Shonin]

Re: Public Sitting

I think the main idea being not to look like someone's "representative" ya know what i mean? May or may not make folks a lil more open.

[Heisoku]

Re: Public Sitting

Thank you Jundo for pointing to 'Living and Dying in Zazen'.
The story of Sodo Yokoyama is truly inspiring, particularly since he started monk training at 52ish years old!
It contains great teachings about being 'ordinary', 'eternal limitless zazen' and 'this limitless Buddha Way'.

Many thanks. _/_