Public Sitting

[Dosho]

Re: Public Sitting

I don't view a Treeleaf endorsement as a safety net, and the endorsement would only be in the form of "Yes it is ok to put that on the pamphlet." I will sit, and try to raise awareness about childhood cancer if Jundo allows me to put that on the pamphlet or not.

Then why haven't you done it already?

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Public Sitting

I don't view a Treeleaf endorsement as a safety net, and the endorsement would only be in the form of "Yes it is ok to put that on the pamphlet." I will sit, and try to raise awareness about childhood cancer if Jundo allows me to put that on the pamphlet or not.

Then why haven't you done it already?

It's winter, and my butt would freeze to my zafu.

I plan on raising awareness not risking hypothermia. Plus I'd like to give others the chance to join in, and see if Jundo is cool with me name dropping.

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Public Sitting

again, I'm not critical of doing things for causes you believe in (and I'm not against public sitting per se); but sitting for the purpose of raising awareness for a cause seems to go against the "radical goalessness" that we aim towards.

This was written by Jundo on another thread:

Hi Peter,

I wish I were so optimistic about that, but I have seen enough examples of experienced and gifted Buddhists "falling down" to think it not so simple.

Some changes happen just through sitting ... to wit, our sense of "self" in conflict with "other" softens and sometimes fades fully away. Real, abiding changes occur to us "automatically" through this Practice.

But as far as keeping to the Precepts ... avoiding excess attachments, lust, anger, gluttony etc etc ... the Zazen sure helps and, sometimes, may be all that is needed. But at other times when temptations are in front of us, much work and willpower may be required too ... though facilitated by Zazen. I have seen few (really, I doubt any) living breathing cases of someone who "got enlightened and was thus 100% free of greed, anger, etc. and that was the end of it" outside of Buddhist story books and their hagiographies of long dead Buddhists.

The subject of "hagiography" came up on another thread today.

viewtopic.php?p=39761#p39761

Ah, sure, maybe we will all be "Perfect Golden Buddhas" one day, some lives down the road ... but in the meantime, we are just Bodhisattva Bozos on the Bus, doing what we can each day.

That does not mean this Practice is not worth it, however. It is, and is radically life changing. It is just that one must stay "on one's toes" a bit. I sometimes compare Dogen's view of ongoing "practice-enlightenment" more to an ongoing dance or "bicycle ride" than a fixed "once and for all you are done" state. Life is an ongoing dance and, no matter how gifted the ballerina, there is always the chance of a stumble at the next turn ... with some days smooth and some days more a struggle. Same with riding a bike ...

http://www.shambhalasun.com/sunspace/?p=15407

But don't give up dancing or bike riding, my friend, just because ya might take a small spill now and then! (at least, of course, until we are all perfect Golden Buddha Ballerinas and Bike Riders).

(By the way, some folks get real real mad at me when I say they should drop the dream of "perfect Buddhas and Ancestors" and "once and for all enlightenment". However, that is the only way to be at one with this perfectly what it is life ... and to realize that we have the choice of "Buddha" or "delusion" in each new moment, with each new step. It is up to us with each new day.)

Gassho, Jundo

Yes shikantaza is a radical sitting method of goal-less goal, but we should also remember that even though zazen is complete, we have no "goal" and essentially life is perfectly "what it is" - we still have much work to do, which requires being mindful of certain goals, and life is far from perfect. It's a koan, like life itself.

[chessie]

Re: Public Sitting

I have to agree with Dosho and mcurtiss; I am very uncomfortable with the proposal as presented for several reasons. First, and this could just be my naive idealism coming into play, but I think of Zazen as the 'pure and whole' practise. To combine it with anything would detract from both the purity and the wholeness, and render it un-zazen. I'm not sure of what you meant with Jundo's quote, but I read it as saying there is Zazen in life, but there is also other stuff in life. He is not saying, and I believe he usually advocates against mixing Zazen with anything else.

Secondly, on a purely practical basis: I have absolutely no objections to, and I would fully support both public sitting and raising cancer awareness. But, think of your audience. The folks who pass by and think 'oh, it's a cancer fundraiser or information deal, but that's not my charity of choice' will walk away and miss the opportunity to witness/observe/learn about zazen. Also, the folks who pass by and say 'oh, it's a Buddhist thing' will walk away and miss the information on the cancer pamphlet. You lose both factions, rather than gaining awareness on either side. I really don't mean to imply that you are doing this, but I hate the appearance of hijacking zazen as a means to gain attention for any cause whatsoever.

In church, there is worship and prayer, and there are social programs. The social programs may be motivated by the worship and prayer, but you don't see much in the way of fundraising or information sessions on Sunday morning for social programs *outside* of the church (in other words, the tithe is not earmarked for the Heart Association, for example).

I rarely read Brad's Harcore Zen blog, but I glanced at it last night, and one thing really resonated with me: (quote) Do we really need to put a big huge "I'M A BUDDHIST, LOOK AT ME!!!" button on for absolutely every occasion? (end quote). I don't believe you have a passion for this particular cause because you are Buddhist, but rather because you are YOU.

Don't mix and match. Zazen when zazen,and samu when samu.

With respect and deep bows, Ann

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Public Sitting

I have to agree with Dosho; I am very uncomfortable with the proposal as presented for several reasons. First, and this could just be my naive idealism coming into play, but I think of Zazen as the 'pure and whole' practise. To combine it with anything would detract from both the purity and the wholeness, and render it un-zazen. I'm not sure of what you meant with Jundo's quote, but I read it as saying there is Zazen in life, but there is also other stuff in life. He is not saying, and I believe he usually advocates against mixing Zazen with anything else.

Secondly, on a purely practical basis: I have absolutely no objections to, and I would fully support both public sitting and raising cancer awareness. But, think of your audience. The folks who pass by and think 'oh, it's a cancer fundraiser or information deal, but that's not my charity of choice' will walk away and miss the opportunity to witness/observe/learn about zazen. Also, the folks who pass by and say 'oh, it's a Buddhist thing' will walk away and miss the information on the cancer pamphlet. You lose both factions, rather than gaining awareness on either side. I really don't mean to imply that you are doing this, but I hate the appearance of hijacking zazen as a means to gain attention for any cause whatsoever.

In church, there is worship and prayer, and there are social programs. The social programs may be motivated by the worship and prayer, but you don't see much in the way of fundraising or information sessions on Sunday morning for social programs *outside* of the church (in other words, the tithe is not earmarked for the Heart Association, for example).

I rarely read Brad's Harcore Zen blog, but I glanced at it last night, and one thing really resonated with me: (quote) Do we really need to put a big huge "I'M A BUDDHIST, LOOK AT ME!!!" button on for absolutely every occasion? (end quote). I don't believe you have a passion for this particular cause because you are Buddhist, but rather because you are YOU.

Don't mix and match. Zazen when zazen,and samu when samu.

With respect and deep bows, Ann

I'm afraid I'll have to respectfully disagree on some points here. From what I've learned from Jundo and Taigu is that zazen is a whole and complete practice, but everything can be zazen. I don't believe you can avoid mixing zazen and "other stuff" especially when you find the sacred in the everyday. The act of zazen is one that we do, not only because it is the highest expression of our Way, but also for the salvation of all sentient beings, that makes it samu in my book. I can see what you are saying about tailoring the presentation to the audience, but I'm not interested in simply one or the other faction. I'm interested in them all. If someone happens by with the "oh, it's a cancer thing." it might not be their chosen fundraiser, but when they get home, they might remember seeing me sit earlier and send their chosen fund a little extra. Or they might give to one of the ones listed or they might do nothing at all. If they go the Buddhist thing route, that's fine with me too, because they might find the Way and the Teachings resonate with them and they might go on to truly help others, or they might do nothing at all. Church may do things one way with their services on Sundays and "fundraisers" apart, but this isn't church.

I would rather say instead, don't make distinctions, don't create separations. When zazen, samu, when samu, dana. This practice is a way of living the entirety of life, and life is woven from as many bits and pieces as the kesa, so how can one not mix? Zazen is "pure and whole" but so is all of life, and every action, no mater how large or small. Zazen is NOT something that occurs only on a zafu, and Jundo has advocated more than once, not leaving what we learn on our cushions, on our cushions, but rather bringing this practice into our every day life, and our every action.

[Hans]

Re: Public Sitting

Hello,

when thinking about how to express the compassionate activity of Kanzeon, I am always reminded of Master Ungan Muju's description of the great Bodhisattva of Compassion's activity:

"He is like a person in the night reaching back with a hand to grope for a pillow."

When discussing things like public sittings, we should also not forget that there are very distinct cultural differences between us Treeleafers. These differences do not speak of right and wrong, but of different cultural perspectives that were formed resting on countless developments in the last couple of hundred years. The whole notion of e.g. "doing good and talking about it"....or even just pointing out who did it is very alien to a lot of people in my culture (one cannot generalise).

My local hospice group raises awareness about dying and death. Although they receive help from local churches, they don't turn it into a church thing...which was a main factor why I dared to join their volunteer training program.

All I'm saying is that we have to take the local cultural code into account, which is why I have no idea how people would receive this in an American setting.

Gassho to all those who wish to express Kanzeon's countless arms through their lives,

Hans

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Public Sitting

We don't "proselytize" (at least, I don't wish to) or pull people in off the street with promises of a free toaster. However, I do believe in making the beauties of Zen Practice overall, and the available resources of this place and other Sangha, known to anyone with whom it might resonate.

http://clearmindzen.org/streetzen.html

It is permissible to have a small sign that reads PEACE or Peace Witness or Earth Witness.
It is not permissible to seek converts to Zen as a religion. It is permissible to offer instruction in the practice of Zazen.
If people address you during your practice period, place your hands together, bow and receive their question. Answer simply and directly without politics or debate. If someone is antagonistic, simply place your hands together, bow, and resume your Zazen.

I don't feel that many aspects of my practice are sacred. I don't chant, I don't own a buddha statue, I don't light incense. Zazen and manifesting life in my ordinary life is my practice. But I feel my Zazen is sacred. I could very well be deluded, but because I feel my Zazen is sacred, I am also a little sensitive to how Zazen is used, especially in the Sangha that I have chosen to belong to. I feel that using Zazen for a purpose is wrong, no matter how noble, and that it is tainting it in a way.

As Hans says, there are also cultural differences. If instead of just sitting, I would dress up in a clown costume, sit Zazen and let passers by throw pies at me for a small amount of money, would that be good practise? It could be fun. It could bring in some serious money for the children. And it would be less potentially ego gratifying than sitting serenly by a waterfall, handing out pamphlets for a good cause, spreading the dharma. A less appealing self-image for sure. A certain dharma brother of Jundo would perhaps even find it cool and refreshing! :mrgreen: But for most of us it just wouldn't feel right. And for me it's the same with the suggested public sitting, just to a lesser degree.

For me, it is also an intimacy thing. For me, Zazen is something I do alone or with like-minded people I trust. I understand that not everybody feels the same. Maybe I'm just shy, maybe I don't want to proselytize, maybe I don't want to risk turning people away from the way. I like to hug my family and friends, but I usually don't hug strangers. Perhaps I could give hugs to passers by and hand them a pamphlet. Maybe some of the people I had hugged would feel a little bit happier or more compassionate that day? I wouldn't feel entirely comfortable with it, but I'd rather do that than the public Zazen for a noble cause thing.

Because I have a hard time identifying with this idea personally, I'm sure not sure I would be happy to see the Treeleaf name on any pamphlets. It just isn't my style or my practice. If our teachers sanction it, I will accept it of course. But I would rather see the word about our Sangha spread in articles like the one Jundo just posted, from mouth to mouth or by good example.

I wish you luck and for your practice to be pure. Good luck in this and any other endevours!

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Public Sitting

I don't feel that many aspects of my practice are sacred. I don't chant, I don't own a buddha statue, I don't light incense. Zazen and manifesting life in my ordinary life is my practice. But I feel my Zazen is sacred. I could very well be deluded, but because I feel my Zazen is sacred, I am also a little sensitive to how Zazen is used, especially in the Sangha that I have chosen to belong to. I feel that using Zazen for a purpose is wrong, no matter how noble, and that it is tainting it in a way.

Just remember, zazen cannot be anything other then zazen. Remember Bodhidharma's response to Emperor of Wu of China when he asked what is the essence of the holy teaching? It was "Vast emptiness, nothing holy" Was Bodhidharma saying that there was nothing to his practice? No, he was saying that there was no special magical thing about his practice that elevated him or the teachings above the holiness of everyday life itself. People keep trying to discriminate the "holy" from the "profane" of life, but we as Zen Buddhists know that ther is no separation, that all is "holy", all is sacred. You don't have to chant, your practice is loud enough to be heard throughout the universe. You don't have to own a statue of Shakyamuni or Amita Buddha or Kannon, Manjusuri, or anyone else, they are with you, part of you, and all around you anyway. They are you. You don't have to light incense, I know I don't, the stuff smells to high heaven. Zazen cannot be "used" it can only be experienced.

If instead of just sitting, I would dress up in a clown costume, sit Zazen and let passers by throw pies at me for a small amount of money, would that be good practise? It could be fun. It could bring in some serious money for the children. And it would be less potentially ego gratifying than sitting serenly by a waterfall, handing out pamphlets for a good cause, spreading the dharma. A less appealing self-image for sure. A certain dharma brother of Jundo would perhaps even find it cool and refreshing! But for most of us it just wouldn't feel right. And for me it's the same with the suggested public sitting, just to a lesser degree.

Maybe it would be good practice, who am I to judge? But if you don't feel right doing it, or any other form of public sitting , don't do it. This is not mandatory, but it would certainly be helpful and have a greater impact with more people.

For me, it is also an intimacy thing. For me, Zazen is something I do alone or with like-minded people I trust. I understand that not everybody feels the same. Maybe I'm just shy, maybe I don't want to proselytize, maybe I don't want to risk turning people away from the way.

So then let that be what it is for you. But no one said that there would be any proselytizing, no one is recruiting, no one is inducing membership in club Buddha. We would be offering people information that they may look at if they so wish, and either look more into the Teachings or line their garbage cans with.

Because I have a hard time identifying with this idea personally, I'm sure not sure I would be happy to see the Treeleaf name on any pamphlets. It just isn't my style or my practice.

Identifying with something implies the existance of a "self" which would identify. Since there is no self, how can one identify or not with an aspect of the Practice? The practice comes in infinite forms that are all one form, Indra's Net reflecting infinite jewels reflecting them back. If you do not feel that this aspect of practice resonates with you personnally, then by all means, continue with what does.

Thank you for your opinion and your practice, I look forward to more talks!

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Public Sitting

*deleted.

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Public Sitting

Ummm......sorry about the double post. Don't know what happened or how to fix it. Jundo, could you or one of the moderators maybe fix that? ops: ops: ops:

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Public Sitting

Press EDIT next to Quote above your message!

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Public Sitting

Like so?

[Shonin]

Re: Public Sitting

I still like the idea of the public sitting, and possible awareness for a charity. But like others i am unsure why the idea to place Treeleaf name and website comes into play. You've adequately made your point about it. However, I feel it may come across to others as kind of self promoting.

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Public Sitting

Just remember, zazen cannot be anything other then zazen. Remember Bodhidharma's response to Emperor of Wu of China when he asked what is the essence of the holy teaching? It was "Vast emptiness, nothing holy" Was Bodhidharma saying that there was nothing to his practice? No, he was saying that there was no special magical thing about his practice that elevated him or the teachings above the holiness of everyday life itself. People keep trying to discriminate the "holy" from the "profane" of life, but we as Zen Buddhists know that ther is no separation, that all is "holy", all is sacred. You don't have to chant, your practice is loud enough to be heard throughout the universe. You don't have to own a statue of Shakyamuni or Amita Buddha or Kannon, Manjusuri, or anyone else, they are with you, part of you, and all around you anyway. They are you. You don't have to light incense, I know I don't, the stuff smells to high heaven. Zazen cannot be "used" it can only be experienced.

Zazen cannot be anything other than Zazen and there is no bad Zazen and no good Zazen. At the same time there is a bad Zazen where you constantly get hit in the face with pies and a good Zazen where you sit in a relaxed position in a quiet room and more easily stop grasping and chasing after thoughts and emotions. I agree that everything and nothing is holy. Maybe I should have said that "Zazen is the most important aspect of my practice as the key to manifesting the universal self in ordinary life" to avoid any confusion. I don't need a statue, I don't need to chant, I don't need to light incense and I don't need to sit publically for a noble cause to be a buddhist. I don't think you should sit Zazen with a purpose. I think you should just sit Zazen for Zazen.

If instead of just sitting, I would dress up in a clown costume, sit Zazen and let passers by throw pies at me for a small amount of money, would that be good practise? It could be fun. It could bring in some serious money for the children. And it would be less potentially ego gratifying than sitting serenly by a waterfall, handing out pamphlets for a good cause, spreading the dharma. A less appealing self-image for sure. A certain dharma brother of Jundo would perhaps even find it cool and refreshing! But for most of us it just wouldn't feel right. And for me it's the same with the suggested public sitting, just to a lesser degree.

Maybe it would be good practice, who am I to judge? But if you don't feel right doing it, or any other form of public sitting , don't do it. This is not mandatory, but it would certainly be helpful and have a greater impact with more people.

Maybe it would be good practice, for me personally. But I would feel like I was embarrassing the whole Zen community while I was doing it and therefore I wouldn't do it. But if I did and handed out a pamphlet saying "Welcome to Treeleaf, this is what we do!", would you feel you were represented in the right way?

So then let that be what it is for you. But no one said that there would be any proselytizing, no one is recruiting, no one is inducing membership in club Buddha. We would be offering people information that they may look at if they so wish, and either look more into the Teachings or line their garbage cans with.

For me, that is bordering on proselytizing. For someone else knocking on doors and handing out Sutras may not be proselytizing. That too would be "offering people information that they may look at if they so wish, and either look more into the Teachings or line their garbage cans with it".

Because I have a hard time identifying with this idea personally, I'm sure not sure I would be happy to see the Treeleaf name on any pamphlets. It just isn't my style or my practice.

Identifying with something implies the existance of a "self" which would identify. Since there is no self, how can one identify or not with an aspect of the Practice? The practice comes in infinite forms that are all one form, Indra's Net reflecting infinite jewels reflecting them back. If you do not feel that this aspect of practice resonates with you personnally, then by all means, continue with what does.

Yes, "that this aspect of practice doesn't resonate with me personally" is a better way of putting it, thank you! English isn't my first language, so I'm sometimes struggling to find the right expression. I have by no means realized full Buddhahood, which means I am still for the most part shackled by my desires and delusions. This unenlightened self that is "me" but not my universal self does not identify with this aspect of practice. In my current state I have no means of deciding if this is due to delusion or seeing the truth.

Thank you for the interesting discussion!

Gassho,
Pontus

[Jinyu]

Re: Public Sitting

Hi everyone!

Wow, you folks have been discussing the subject that is great!

To be honest, I'm always uncomfortable when money and Dharma are together... doesn't feel right to me!
But I guess... We are oblige to deal with money!

My project was way more simple... I just had the thought of sharing the practice of zazen with people. Not trying to convert anyone, ... just sharing a the "taste of Zazen". Like "degustation" in a supermarket... just to have an idea of the taste of it, to face people with the question: Is this a practice that is right for me? To give some people the possibility to ask some basic questions.
The first time I "meditate" the thing felt right! I knew that was going to be something significant in my life... with no idea of school or tradition... just the fact of sitting, taking the time to be present... And I want to share this with people, to give them a place to experiment. There are a lot of very good places for it... but they won't go! Most people don't want to do the first step to "meditation", many reasons for that! but at least they will have an idea of what meditation really is!
Some years ago the AZI made some events like these, they teach zazen to people in trains, in the parcs,... it was a wonderful idea!

If people want to give money that is great and it will go for a local charity... but I won't ask! Having the name Treeleaf Sangha associated in this kind of thing is important! Not for me, but for people! In fact, I think that it is easier for them to take 20 minutes to try something new if the guy who shows it belong to someplace. If he is just a guy sharing ... they may have more difficulties! Of course, Treeleaf is to be mentioned when asked... it is not a "golden umbrella" that makes us more special or gives us more ability to share the sitting of Zazen...

Well, of course this is just my view on this subject and I hope we will discuss it more!

gassho,
Jinyu