Zen and the brain

[chankin]

Thanks Jundo for pointing our my mistake. I'm a bit of a bumbler where computers are concerned.


Hello Jundo, Raindrop, Ohesho and Jishin,
And thank your for your posts, I appreciate the time you have taken to criticise them and I will now try to address those criticisms.
First, I am keen to assert the usefulness, no , the absolute necessity of using CMA in our daily lives. We would never have left the stone age without it. The main point I tried to make was that the untrained mind overuses it. CMA is the tool we use to satisfy our appetites and solve our problems but it plays no part in our being happy. Once we bring this realisation into our daily lives, not theoretically but practically (through meditation), the nature of our everyday experiences change. Every waking moment is underpinned by feelings of contentment and peace-of-mind. That is the great "treasure" of Zen.

Ma-tsu (died 788) said: "Only let a man exhaust all his thinking and imagining; he then holds the unparalled treasure."

I was also very impressed by this quote:
Hsi Yun (a Zen Master who lived about 840 A.D.) had this advice to give:


" ...To make use of the mind to think (in the ordinary sense of the word) is to leave the substance and attach yourself to forms.... The pure mind, the source of everything, shines on with all the brilliance of its own perfection, but the people of the world do not awake to it, regarding only that which sees, hears, feels and knows as mind. Because their understanding is veiled by their own sight, hearing, feeling and knowledge, they do not understand the spiritual brilliance of the original substance. If they could only eliminate all analytical

thinking in a flash, that original substance would manifest itself like the sun ascending through the void and illuminating the whole universe without hindrance or bounds.... Neither hold to them (sight, hearing, etc.), abandon them, dwell in them nor cleave to them, but exist independently of all that is above, below

or around you...."


But the article I posted (the psychology of happiness) is mainly intended to ground Zen in an everyday experience we are all familiar with - happiness. Practising zazen enhances ordinary feelings of happiness, giving us access to extremes of it. Humanity thinks that CMA is an end in itself. It is not . It is merely a means to an end. We have to learn how to be happy in much the same way as we have to learn how to walk and talk. It is not intuitive.

Meditators can of course pass through the "blissful zone" and experience states of mind that are totally dissociated from the useful functions accessible to awareness. They can enter the void.(Dogen's "dropping body and mind") I am not sure this is at all useful. It can be frightening and debilitating if such contact is prolonged (as a friend of mine found out!). Its far better just to confine CMA to it's proper role and get our just and proper rewards for successful actions.
I hope this clears up a few points.
Colin

[Jishin]

Zen and the brain

Hi Colin,

This CMA business is too much Blah, Blah, Blah for me. I like to sit to get rid (be ok with) of the Blah, Blah, Blah.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Meishin]

Hi,

It's fun to chew on words. But in moderation and small bites.

Just my opinion.

Gassho
Meishin
sat today

[Jundo]

Hi Colin,

I am curious ...

Every waking moment is underpinned by feelings of contentment and peace-of-mind.

Is your every waking moment so? Are you saying that you are now always, 24/7, feeling happy in the conventional sense of that word? Always in bliss? I am not sure if that is what you are saying.

Yes, we sometimes reduce the "CMA", just as you describe. That aspect of what you say seem right on! Zazen is so, But I feel wonderfully content and at peace with my "CMA", although simply not bound by it, by seeing thru it. How do you explain that? CMA has a certain light and stillness which shines right through.

I actually will say that I am always content and at peace in my life now ... but, strange as it sounds, it is a "content" and "peace" which is content in not needing to always feel content, and a "peace" that need not always be peaceful. Kind of an overriding, "meta-Peace" or "Big C" Contentment that sweeps in all of life's twists and turns. Very much like saying that, now, I am Big "J" Joyous to sometimes be heart broken when my cat dies, Big "C" Content even when scared out of my wits that the doctor will find the "big c" cancer next check-up, etc. It is a certain "Big J" Joy which shines like a light, and is felt simultaneously, as I hand-in-hand feel small human joys and sadnesses.

It is perfectly content and at peace with "CMA".

How do you explain that?

Gassho, J

SatToday

[chankin]

Hello Jundo.
I don't think there is much difference between how you feel and how I feel. I explain it this way: In the untrained mind there is an undercurrent of random and habitual CMA. That is what it is and it produces feelings of dissatisfaction, and discontentment. In the well practised meditator (you) that undercurrent has gone. In its place there is an undercurrent of peace-of-mind because that is what a reduction in CMA actually produces. This does not inhibit problem solving (CMA). In fact, I think it makes it easier. The change in our daily experiences is so radical I am convinced that this is the "enlightenment" the Buddha talked about. To me, at least, it makes sense. The burden of dukkha (for that is what I personally believe this tyranny of thought is) has been lifted. I can't for the life of me think of what else it could be. What is your opinion?

BTW. I read, in another forum, criticism that Treeleaf and it teachers had no authority because they had not been sanctioned by persons in the direct lineage. This is nonsense. You have proved in your posts that you know how to meditate and I feel sure your colleagues do as well. No other qualification is necessary. What I had hoped to add to that in my posts is a knowledge of why meditation works.
Keep up the good work.
Colin

I sit an hour each night.

[Jundo]

Hi Colin,

I believe that what you are doing is offering a fancy-schmancy way of saying something like "thinking-non-thinking". If so, we are on the same page. In fact, more than my opinion, if such works and is right for you ... it is. This truly is a 'proof is in the pudding' practice. We do not argue so much over recipes for pudding. Rather, one tastes ... yum.

BTW, not that is matters ... where did you hear we had no direct lineage? My Dharma Grandpa, Nishijima's Teacher, Niwa Zenji, was the Abbot of Eiheiji, the Pope of all Soto-Shu in Japan. It don't get much more Kosher than that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rempo_Niwa_Zenji

And it is in Wikipedia, so you know it must be true. Anyway, Lineage, and a $1, will get you a small coffee at McDonalds.

http://www.treeleaf.org/articles/TreeleafTheLineage.html

But beside that, do you know that all the Zen Lineages are "made up" in one way or another, and are ahistorical? It's true. Somewhere down the line, all Buddhist Lineages are stuck together with duct tape.

http://www.office.usp.ac.jp/~klinger.w/class/jcmu/Ishida-Lineage%20of%20Chan.pdf

No problem, because somebody, somewhere kept this thing going through the Centuries. We celebrate that, even if a little fuzzy on their exact names.

Gassho, J

SatToday

PS - Niwa Zenji in his fancy duds ... and eyebrows to die for ...

[Jishin]

I read, in another forum, criticism that Treeleaf and it teachers had no authority because they had not been sanctioned by persons in the direct lineage. This is nonsense. You have proved in your posts that you know how to meditate and I feel sure your colleagues do as well. No other qualification is necessary.

The great Jishin serves as the sanctioning body deciding who has proper qualifications to teach (him).

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Myosha]

The great Jishin serves as the sanctioning body deciding who has proper qualifications to teach (him).

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

And who can argue with that?

What a blessing to be.

Make babies, today!^^


Gassho
Myosha sat today

[chankin]

Hello Jundo,
Regarding lineage – I read a very critical post on line by some prejudiced zealot from another forum. In mentioning it I was taking the opportunity to say that I am firmly convinced that lineage doesn’t matter. If you can do the job, then obviously you are qualified. From what I have read, you can.

Nit picking - As to “thinking non-thinking”, that sounds a bit too much like an “activity” to me.
I (pedantically) prefer “being aware of non-thinking” because the ultimate reality in zazen is the experience of unpredicated awareness. Why this is called “seeing ones true nature” I cannot fathom, because one’s true nature (in the untrained mind) is to overthink. Surely that is the “disease” Zen sets out to cure.
Colin

[Jishin]

I read a very critical post on line by some prejudiced zealot from another forum.

Hi Colin,

Food for thought:

If you like to think (I don't anymore), I find that when people are critical or prejudiced it is because of fear. The interesting question is why?

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

[chankin]

I understand thinking-non-thinking as being aware of the fact that the mind is producing thoughts and throws them our way, and not clinging to, comment or judge any of them.

Hello Kyonin,
That’s good practice on the zafu.

While not on the zafu, say in the market place, if I notice I am grabbing into a critical thought or a judgement of someone with a funky outfit, I am able to let it go and see I'm being judgmental.

But if you see someone running towards you with a bloodstained axe, I think its wise to be very judgemental.

The point I am trying to make is just because we abstain from thinking on the zafu does not mean it has no part to play in our lives off the zafu. It can be very useful there.

So, even if know nothing about psychology, all I can say is that by doing this, I can accept things as they are and be contempt with them. This brings peace to my heart even in the hardest times.

In meditation we are using psychology all the time, whether we realise it or not. If it brings peace to your heart, you are using it effectively.
Colin

[Jishin]

Hi,

Mr. Zen teaches the middle way.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[RichardH]

This is a response to an impression of this thread, and some of the words that have popped out. Thinking-not- thinking is anyway anyhow already, but somehow a stilling and ceasing helps. That ceasing just happens.

But still I have to train the mind in an ordinary way to change habits. There is no "problem" but what good is the happiness of no problem if I am socially obtuse, or ignore the suffering caused by my acting out. ...and who is beyond doing that. Happiness comes and goes, sadness comes and goes. Feeling clingy and bunged-up comes and goes, and feeling Enlightened also comes and goes.

We got a new toaster that burns everything. The taste of peanut butter and charred toast. There are kids playing in a neighbor's pool *splash splash* , an eye strain headache is subsiding. Maybe a fifteen minute nap. There is someone who needs hugging in the next room, Someone down the street who needs to be told "good job" .

Please take this riff with a grain of salt.

Gassho
Daizan
Sat today

[Jundo]

In Zen, Zazen is not "training" the mind. If anything, it's "untraining" the mind by a process of letting go, rather than training the mind to do something different.

I used quotes in "untraining" because Mr Zen is very quarrelsome when it comes to talking about Zazen. He doesn't like it when you say anything concrete about Zazen or hint that it has a purpose. In his unhelpful way, Mr Zen would say that Zazen is neither training nor untraining but beyond training and untraining. Zazen is neither back-to-front nor front-to-back, but beyond back-to-front and front-to-back. Zazen is Zazen. Why would Mr Zen be so unhelpful?

I'm not sure what 'Mr Zen' might say, but I believe Zazen has aspects of both training and untraining. We do need to develop the ability to drop or (for what cannot be dropped) see through and not be bound by much of the mental baggage of greed, anger and divisive ignorance we are prone to. That takes some practice and discipline to do so, i.e., training.

Simultaneously, something basic is sensed which is beyond and right thru all dualities, including "training" and "untraining" or "not training". Such is simultaneously beyond all that, yet also simultaneously precisely each. It is training when training, untraining when untraining, not training when not training.

Each and all of the above are true at once.

Now, any Zen Teacher who says that the point of this Zen enterprise is merely to attain a purely unconditioned mind, attain Kensho, or reach some state "before thinking" is a fool who misleads students. Why? It is merely reaching the blank canvas and having the paints, but never painting the picture. The 'unconditioned mind' is like seeing the white light emanating from a film projector, but never seeing the film. The 'unconditioned mind' alone is not a source of much guidance in how to function in life, despite extreme claims about it to the contrary.

Better is to find the "unconditioned mind" that is simultaneously the "conditioned mind" (thus seeing thru and no longer being a hostage of the "conditioned mind" even as we human beings need our "conditioned mind" to function and live). Thus, there is that which is beyond thinking right at the heart of, and as, thinking. We become wiser and better painters of life's painting now that we realize that it is a creation greatly in our hands, we become better film directors and actors now that we are not so suckered in by the comedy and drama of the story.

Something like that.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Byokan]

I'm not sure what 'Mr Zen' might say, but I believe Zazen has aspects of both training and untraining. We do need to develop the ability to drop or (for what cannot be dropped) see through and not be bound by much of the mental baggage of greed, anger and divisive ignorance we are prone to. That takes some practice and discipline to do so, i.e., training.

Simultaneously, something basic is sensed which is beyond and right thru all dualities, including "training" and "untraining" or "not training". Such is simultaneously beyond all that, yet also simultaneously precisely each. It is training when training, untraining when untraining, not training when not training.

Each and all of the above are true at once.

Now, any Zen Teacher who says that the point of this Zen enterprise is merely to attain a purely unconditioned mind, attain Kensho, or reach some state "before thinking" is a fool who misleads students. Why? It is merely reaching the blank canvas and having the paints, but never painting the picture. The 'unconditioned mind' is like seeing the white light emanating from a film projector, but never seeing the film. The 'unconditioned mind' alone is not a source of much guidance in how to function in life, despite extreme claims about it to the contrary.

Better is to find the "unconditioned mind" that is simultaneously the "conditioned mind" (thus seeing thru and no longer being a hostage of the "conditioned mind" even as we human beings need our "conditioned mind" to function and live). Thus, there is that which is beyond thinking right at the heart of, and as, thinking. We become wiser and better painters of life's painting now that we realize that it is a creation greatly in our hands, we become better film directors and actors now that we are not so suckered in by the comedy and drama of the story.

Something like that.

Gassho, J

SatToday

Thank you Jundo. So grateful for your teaching.

Gassho
Lisa
sat today