Zen and the brain

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  • Ryumon
    Member
    • Apr 2007
    • 1787

    Zen and the brain

    Jundo made some very interesting points when talking about the neuroscience stuff. In fact, he hit on something that to me is essential.

    I have a vascular malformation in my brainstem, which causes a variety of symptoms because of blood, following a bleed, that doesn't get reabsorbed, and is an irritant. This led me, about a year and a half ago, to get back into meditation, after a long hiatus, and, at the same time, to try and learn more about the brain. I noticed, for example, that when meditating long enough, some of my physical symptoms would fade away. I knew this was not that I had ignored them, because they are physical symptoms, not merely mental constructions that lead to physical sensations.

    So I looked into this (notably with this astounding, though dense, book, Zen and the Brain - ). It turns out that meditation can affect levels of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) in the brain, and that GABA is the main inhibiting neurotransmitter. Interestingly, the medication I take attempts to stimulate GABA production or enhance GABA neuroreceptors. That's the principal of most anti-epileptic or anti-convulsant medication. It slows you down a bit, but that slowing down prevents the brain from going into overdrive. (Obviously, that's not the only brain chemical affected by meditation.)

    So why is this important? It showed me that meditation is not about faith or religion; that meditation is, or should be, first and foremost looked at as a "technique". I hesitate to say a "self-improvement" technique, because of the connotations of that term, but it allows me to look at meditation without "spirituality", which often suggests superstition. This fits with much of what Jundo says, such as how the Buddha was "just an ordinary guy", and all that, and it reassures me, because I'm not looking for faith - a blind acceptance of something - but rather experience.

    Interestingly, I came across this article in today's science news, about how yoga increases GABA:

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 145516.htm

    They're looking at medical applications there, but I think the point remains that meditation does things, not just in the mind, but in the brain as well.

    Kirk
    I know nothing.
  • Hans
    Member
    • Mar 2007
    • 1853

    #2
    Hello Kirk!

    All these scientific approaches to meditation and related subjects are very interesting indeed, but that's all about it really, it's interesting....judged from my personal point of view. The trouble with mechanistic approaches to internal processes is simply that certain tools will only ever give you certain answers.

    For example: Arguably someone with a double Phd in Biology and Medicine from Oxford University sounds like a person who should know just about everything regarding the ways in which our bodies work...yet at the same time who do people actually turn to when it comes to making some kind of sense of all this "matter"?....we as humans turn to poets, philosophers, psychologists and religious leaders (in the broadest sense).

    You can list all the molecules, enzymes, hormones etc.that play a part in creating the feeling we might label "love". Does that tell you anything about it or help you deal with a person you feel drawn to? No.

    As far as describing second hand reality goes, poets etc. come closest to "it". And still you have to experience "it" yourself, to really know what's happening. If we as Zen practitioners conect our practice too closely to scientific discoveries, we're giving away the key to judging things ourselves and will be slaves to whatever science will discover next.

    I'd rather like to say: "Based on my own expriences, I have verified the core teachings of the Buddha."

    than

    "I am practicing a "technique" that the current scientific status quo (that tends to change drastically every couple of decades) seems to support."

    Really a lot of this "Tao of physics" stuff is also down to wishful thinking...

    Don't get me wrong, a peer-reviewed scientist employing reason, Occam's razor and the body of actual evidence rather than a religous belief system is in my eyes a much more trustworthy source of information than let's say someone who just "channeled" the will of the Gods during his lunchbreak.

    I am pro science, pro reason and pro evidence, but against placing too much emphasis on scientific notions coming from the outside dealing with things that happen inside, just because it may make me feel good (in the sense of: "science supports my religious practice....but not yours!")

    It is very interesting nevertheless

    Gassho,

    Hans

    Comment

    • Dharmamong
      Member
      • Apr 2007
      • 17

      #3
      Kirk +Hans


      I don't think it matters how things (in this case meditation and it's benefits) are described or by who. It's just words dividing the world again, whatever is happening during meditation, just let it happen. If it works it works.

      mOng.
      Generic pretentious comment

      Comment

      • chankin
        Member
        • Jul 2015
        • 16

        #4
        Hello Kirk and Hans,
        Have a look at this attempt to set out the psychology that Zen uses to allow us access to peace-of-mind:
        The Problem
        People today believe that they must keep their minds occupied at all times otherwise they fear they will become bored. They solve life-sustaining problems and then invent others in order to keep themselves busy. They allow a constant stream of random and habitual thoughts to parade continuously through their minds. This builds a permanent mood of dissatisfaction, frustration and lack of fulfilment. They never get their just and proper mental rewards for their successful actions. They are never truly happy. They suffer under the tyranny of obsessive thinking. (Dukkha)


        The solution
        1/ We have problems to solve and appetites to satisfy and the tool we use to do that is our intellect – (conscious mental activity - CMA). CMA is the collection accumulation recall and association of data and the direction of action. It is the entire panoply of actions accessible to our awareness.)


        2/ Consider a single appetite or problem isolated from all others. Once that appetite is satisfied or problem is solved , we ideally abstain from further efforts to satisfy it - we abstain from further CMA regarding it. CMA has fulfilled it essential role.
        3/ Simultaneously, once an appetite is satisfied or a problem is solved we feel a degree of fulfilment, contentment and peace-of-mind – that kind of happiness (Bliss).
        4/ So: there is a direct relationship between the degree of happiness we feel and a reduction in the level of CMA we have employed in satisfying that appetite.
        5/ Extrapolating this last statement to its extreme case, it follows that we will experience perfect happiness when we abstain from all conscious mental activity.
        Result
        Once we understand this relationship we can practice abstaining from CMA – recognising that although it has an invaluable role to play in satisfying our appetites and solving out problems it has no part to play in our being happy. We can do this in our daily lives by pausing occasionally to stare into the heart of a rose or the smiling face of a young child and concentrate on how we feel. Don’t think about it – just become aware of the experience that arises. Or we can sit quietly in a room as free of distractions as possible with our back unsupported and allow CMA to melt away – to burn itself out. Have no thoughts for or against it. Try to remain detached from them. Neither encourage nor discourage whatever CMA that arises. Have patience – the experience will arise when you are ready

        Should we succeed in this we will experience extreme degrees of contentment – fulfilment and peace-of-mind. Eventually, the effects of success will change the condition of your mind. The random and habitual thought that permeated the untrained mind will fade away. Every waking moment will be underpinned by peace-of-mind - happiness.

        Colin
        Last edited by chankin; 07-13-2015, 01:24 PM. Reason: Eliminating errors

        Comment

        • Jundo
          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
          • Apr 2006
          • 40190

          #5
          Hi Colin,

          Boy, you have revived an old thread (8 years!) from the past.

          When you joined Treeleaf a few days ago, you said that you had been practicing for 60 (!) years, and wanted to run this theory by.

          I don't know, but I do not believe that humans beings can function as human beings over the long term without "conscious mental activity". While it is good to sit for a spell reducing "CMA" for the wholeness and clarity which results (Shikantaza certainly does so), we must soon get on with life which involves a whole lot of "CMA". So, I believe it is actually possible to experience that same wholeness and clarity at many times in life ... CMA or not. I believe that this is what Master Dogen was referring to as "thinking-non-thinking". Even during Shikantaza, thoughts come and go, we simply do not get tangled, and one finds a certain light which shines right thru both "thoughts" or "no thoughts. One can think and be free of thoughts at once, knowing the silence in the noise, the stillness in the movements of the mind.

          One also encounters a certain "Big H" Happiness that is not dependent upon, and shines right thru, both times of ordinary human happiness and sadness. It is hard to express, but it is not a "Happiness" that is even dependent on our feeling "happy" at any particular moment, and might be described as a wise "being happy even to be sad sometimes, for all is life". The bright moon of enlightenment shines both when seen and even when unseen behind clouds ... and this Practice allows one to find the moon not dependent on clouds of thought or their absence.

          Nor do I feel that the purpose of this Practice is to maximize bliss. Oh, there surely are times of bliss, but best not to get hung up on that (morphine does a much more effective job on blissing, and we all know where that gets one).

          However, if you have been sitting for 60 years, and believe you have found a good path for yourself ... do that. Go you way which feels right for you. Why teach this old dog new tricks now?

          As to the old question by Kirk from long ago: I do not know enough about the particular physiological effect of meditation which Kirk mentions, so I have no opinion. However, I will say that a recent meta-study on all the research to date on the "effects of meditation" shows that the field is a mess! Studies on meditation have been plagued with poor methodology, small samples, mishandling of control groups, failure to clearly define criteria, extreme interpretations not clearly founded upon the results, etc. etc.

          The report concluded, "Scientific research on meditation practices does not appear to have a common theoretical perspective and is characterized by poor methodological quality. Firm conclusions on the effects of meditation practices in healthcare cannot be drawn based on the available evidence. Future research on meditation practices must be more rigorous in the design and execution of studies and in the analysis and reporting of results." ... "Most clinical trials on meditation practices are generally characterized by poor methodological quality with significant threats to validity in every major quality domain assessed".
          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17764203
          Gassho, Jundo

          SatToday
          Last edited by Jundo; 07-14-2015, 06:51 AM.
          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

          Comment

          • Byokan
            Treeleaf Unsui
            • Apr 2014
            • 4288

            #6
            Hi Colin,

            This psychology is interesting and clearly much earnest work has gone into formulating it. I think there’s a lot of truth here. I am nodding and agreeing up to number 3, then my experience veers off and differs in a few ways.

            The momentary satisfaction we can feel after an appetite is satisfied or a problem is solved, while temporarily freeing, is not --in my experience -- true peace of mind. Dukkha soon rears its lovely head again in another itch, another dissatisfactoriness, another desire. Focusing on the after-effect of problem-solving... less CMA... as the pathway to happiness is, I think, getting one’s feet tangled in the rigging. The perfect happiness you speak of -- freedom from Dukkha, right? -- is arrived at by setting your sail in the proper direction. This will vary according to the prevailing winds and conditions. Ok, help, someone get me out of this sailing metaphor!

            What I’m saying is that it’s not the thoughts themselves (CMA) that are the problem. Thought is the natural activity of the human brain. It is, as you put it, the ‘tyranny’ of the thoughts, that enslaves us. Freedom exists, not in having fewer thoughts, or ‘purer’ thoughts, but in freeing ourselves from the enslavement to thoughts; the way we are fooled by them, drawn in, carried away from direct experience. The joke of it is, we are the ones holding the chain that keeps us captive! To me, real freedom is when all that CMA is running on, but you are not tyrannized or fooled by it. The trained mind utilizes CMA when it is needed, for problem-solving in day-to-day life. At the same time there is an expanded awareness that contains CMA and all the nonsense and bliss and suffering of this world, yet is not enslaved. A clear understanding and abiding with the true nature of things, an apprehension of wholeness, that makes the distinction between thought/no-thought irrelevant. Freedom from notions of duality. Even bliss/no-bliss is transcended. No need to chase happiness. Every waking moment already contains it. And suffering too, all at once.

            My current understanding/experience, and please do take it in the spirit of not-knowing in which it is offered (pass the salt):

            The point is not to wrestle CMA to the ground, or burn it away, so we can then be happy. Shikantaza is not a thought-management system. Nor is it a method to transform suffering to bliss. It is a doorway, a window, a mirror, a path, a rocketship to freedom where all such distinction and striving falls away. We abide in our true and natural state with our actions arising accordingly.

            Of course, this is only my subjective experience, and though it differs from yours a little, I’m not saying your experience is mistaken. I love it when people share their own understanding of buddhism and shikantaza, it is so helpful and interesting, and I bow to yours and thank you for sharing it.

            Gassho
            Lisa
            sat today
            Last edited by Byokan; 07-13-2015, 07:39 PM.
            展道 渺寛 Tendō Byōkan
            Please take my words with a big grain of salt. I know nothing. Wisdom is only found in our whole-hearted practice together.

            Comment

            • Jundo
              Treeleaf Founder and Priest
              • Apr 2006
              • 40190

              #7
              Originally posted by raindrop

              The momentary satisfaction we can feel after an appetite is satisfied or a problem is solved, while temporarily freeing, is not --in my experience -- true peace of mind. Dukkha soon rears its lovely head again in another itch, another dissatisfactoriness, another desire. Focusing on the after-effect of problem-solving... less CMA... as the pathway to happiness is, I think, getting one’s feet tangled in the rigging. ... Thought is the natural activity of the human brain. It is, as you put it, the ‘tyranny’ of the thoughts, that enslaves us. Freedom exists, not in having fewer thoughts, or ‘purer’ thoughts, but in freeing ourselves from the enslavement to thoughts; the way we are fooled by them, drawn in, carried away from direct experience. The joke of it is, we are the ones holding the chain that keeps us captive! To me, real freedom is when all that CMA is running on, but you are not tyrannized or fooled by it. .... At the same time there is an expanded awareness that contains CMA and all the nonsense and bliss and suffering of this world, yet is not enslaved. A clear understanding and abiding with the true nature of things, an apprehension of wholeness, that makes the distinction between thought/no-thought irrelevant. Freedom from notions of duality. Even bliss/no-bliss is transcended. No need to chase happiness. Every waking moment already contains it. And suffering too, all at once. ...

              The point is not to wrestle CMA to the ground, or burn it away, so we can then be happy. Shikantaza is not a thought-management system. Nor is it a method to transform suffering to bliss. It is a doorway, a window, a mirror, a path, a rocketship to freedom where all such distinction and striving falls away. We abide in our true and natural state with our actions arising accordingly.

              Of course, this is only my subjective experience, and though it differs from yours a little, I’m not saying your experience is mistaken.
              I couldn't have said it better myself!

              In fact, I didn't!

              Lovely.

              Would Master Dogen speak of "CMA-NON-CMA"? The light which shines when both CMA and the absence of CMA are dropped away, and re-emerge to dance?

              Gassho, J

              SatToday
              ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

              Comment

              • Jishin
                Member
                • Oct 2012
                • 4821

                #8
                Zen and the brain

                Originally posted by chankin
                The Problem
                Hi,

                There is a problem only if there is a problem. I don't see a problem. Do you? If you see a problem you just owned a problem. Do you really want to own another problem? Why would you want to do that? That sounds like a much more interesting problem to own if you are looking for problems.

                To state it differently, form is emptiness and emptiness if form. Form is exactly emptiness and emptiness exactly form. Why extract form (problem) out of problem-noproblem (emptiness)?

                Just saying...

                Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_
                Last edited by Jishin; 07-14-2015, 11:35 AM.

                Comment

                • Jundo
                  Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                  • Apr 2006
                  • 40190

                  #9
                  Jishin, stop making problems!

                  Gassho, J

                  SatToday
                  ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                  Comment

                  • Jishin
                    Member
                    • Oct 2012
                    • 4821

                    #10


                    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

                    Comment

                    • Getchi
                      Member
                      • May 2015
                      • 612

                      #11
                      Interesting ideas, thankyou all!.

                      2/ Consider a single appetite or problem isolated from all others.


                      This is where you lost me. Who is considering? How are these "things" isolated in reality? Isnt it just another mental abstraction? Like is talked about above, the human fetish for mental compartmentalisation is the main topic of practice, no?

                      Forgive me, I am old and tired and small stones in my path worry me more then before


                      Gassho
                      Geoff.
                      Sat2day.
                      Nothing to do? Why not Sit?

                      Comment

                      • Kyonin
                        Treeleaf Priest / Engineer
                        • Oct 2010
                        • 6745

                        #12
                        Hi all,

                        I understand thinking-non-thinking as being aware of the fact that the mind is producing thoughts and throws them our way, and not clinging to, comment or judge any of them.

                        For me this has been a good practice because more often than not, I'm capable to identify thoughts for what they are: stories my mind makes up. And as such, I can let go of them.

                        While not on the zafu, say in the market place, if I notice I am grabbing into a critical thought or a judgement of someone with a funky outfit, I am able to let it go and see I'm being judgmental.

                        So, even if know nothing about psychology, all I can say is that by doing this, I can accept things as they are and be contempt with them. This brings peace to my heart even in the hardest times.

                        Not sure if that makes sense. If not, please discard this message.

                        Gassho,

                        Kyonin
                        #SatToday
                        Hondō Kyōnin
                        奔道 協忍

                        Comment

                        • Getchi
                          Member
                          • May 2015
                          • 612

                          #13
                          Kyonin that was a beautiful description of what I try to do as well. Im sometimes angry at myself for having the thought to begin with, then have to make room to just be human and let them be funky


                          Gassho,
                          SatToday.
                          Nothing to do? Why not Sit?

                          Comment

                          • Jundo
                            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                            • Apr 2006
                            • 40190

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Kyonin
                            Hi all,

                            I understand thinking-non-thinking as being aware of the fact that the mind is producing thoughts and throws them our way, and not clinging to, comment or judge any of them.
                            And also "thinking-non-thinking" is to know and be the Light which shines right thru.

                            Gassho, J

                            SatToday
                            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                            Comment

                            • Ongen
                              Member
                              • Jan 2014
                              • 786

                              #15
                              Lisa,



                              Gassho


                              Ongen
                              Sat Today
                              Ongen (音源) - Sound Source

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