Where are all the guys gone?...Rakusu blues

[Onshin]

Re: Where are all the guys gone?...Rakusu blues

Hi Taigu,
I am not ignoring you. I sewed a rakusu (different pattern) just before joining Treeleaf, I showed this to Jundo on Skype, he approved. As I told him though, I am now sewing-alonga-Taigu the Trealeaf Myoho version to fully immerse myself in the sangha. It is perfectly imperfect. The first one was all blind stitching so the mistakes are mostly hidden, but this version is more honest, every bad stitch is on show, even as there are no bad stitches.Photos will come probably next week as that is when I should get my camera back from the menders ( I dropped it ops: ).
I enjoyed my Skype talk with Jundo and look forward to meeting you on skype. Perhaps we can set up a time, I am available anytime (unless I get a job :lol: ) and have a few things to discuss.

Much Gassho

Joe

[Yugen]

Re: Where are all the guys gone?...Rakusu blues

Taigu,
Thank you for your reply - I agree with your levels of understanding for killing the Buddha - I see a bit of each in my own practice. And you are very responsible ( and doing the job of a good teacher ) to not only encourage, but challenge our practice. Often that entails putting oneself in the "line of fire" as a teacher. You and Jundo have every right to set out expectations for practice and the path and we are free to choose to accept or not accept. As students, fellow members of the community, and teachers in our own right we test our understanding (where we are "right now")... thanks for your remarks, encouragement, and provocations ( I had a Professor of ancient greek in university who used to challenge us in contextual translations - he would issue a "provocation" to unsettle our thinking or shake us loose from previously held notions - I have adopted this terminology and tactic in the classroom myself - it can be as gentle or direct as one wishes - but compassionate throughout).

Gassho,
Yugen

[Stephanie]

Re: Where are all the guys gone?...Rakusu blues

I had to give myself a few days to "cool off" before being able to return and comment on this thread.

I am aware that when I get heated, my abrasive mode of expression means that my original message doesn't get communicated, because people react to the sharpness of it instead of what was being said. I certainly don't think I expressed my points skillfully. So I take responsibility for the fact that the points I was trying to make didn't seem to come across.

I know that for centuries, Zen has been transmitted through a purely patriarchal / hierarchical social and political system. And I find much to admire, actually, in this and all other aspects of the Zen tradition. But I also find it to be the most ripe for change.

I don't believe that a Zen community should be a pure democracy. That would be incoherent. But I think a culture should be fostered in which teachers are consistently held responsible for their words and actions, and not given carte blanche to communicate with sangha members in any way they see fit. I think we should all be equally beholden to the same Dharma and the same standards of speech and behavior.

I find that Jundo has gone above and beyond to promote this kind of atmosphere at Treeleaf. I don't see Jundo, or Taigu, as evil abusers of their authority. What I do see them as, however, is ordinary, flawed human beings, just like the rest of us. And I think it's dangerous when everything a teacher does is justified by his/her authority rather than the apparent virtue of the action itself. I don't ever want that to become the norm here at Treeleaf; I think that would go against so much of what Jundo put in to founding this place of practice.

I think scolding and sharp words not only have a place in a zendo, but have an important place. My issue was not with Taigu issuing a "scold" or a reminder. It was the way it was done. Had Taigu said, flat out, "People who do not send a rakusu to me will not get the lineage chart and will not complete jukai" this wouldn't have elicited a single drop of concern from me. I would have supported that statement.

However, the 1-2 punch of naming the "good boys/girls" and by implication, also the "bad boys/girls," and following that up with an accusation that rather than being, say, conflicted, busy, or even lazy, the people who had not yet started a rakusu were being selfish, trying to take without giving or doing, and not sincerely practicing, was and remains unacceptable to me.

I'm very wary of the use of terms like "egotistical" and "selfish" as scold words in a spiritual context. Not that they're never appropriate; goodness knows I can be selfish and egotistical, this is why I practice, and I need reminders sometimes. But they are often abused. I find that on average, there are far more "givers" than "takers" drawn to spiritual practice. And "givers" often have experiences of being emotionally manipulated with guilt and shame for not setting aside self-concern 100% of the time. The result is that the "givers" try harder to achieve their ideal, saintly level of selflessness while takers coast by on what they give. It's a tried and true manipulation tactic that abusers and takers know how to use to their full advantage. Now, I'm not saying Taigu is an abuser or a taker, but I find the word "selfishly" was similarly abused in this instance.

I imagine a lot of people who intended to do jukai who had not yet started a rakusu had not done so because of overwhelming emotional and time/energy demands of their lives. I know many Europeans have it much better, living in saner cultures with more reasonable balance in work and "free" time, but most Americans I know are constantly beating themselves up for not being able to do more with the scant time and energy left over from working and commuting, not to even mention family and home care demands. And no doubt people living in many countries face challenges that make the American lifestyle look like a cakewalk. Add in daily zazen--many people committing to two periods or even more a day--and regular intensive sittings, precept study, and other practices, and it's clear that even the most dedicated practitioner might have a hard time fitting in learning something that is most likely completely foreign to them--sewing a garment. Now, I'm not saying these things shouldn't be done, or that people shouldn't have to find a way to get a rakusu done to complete Jukai. But to give overburdened people a guilt trip, and say shaming things about them, was and remains inappropriate and unnecessary in my book.

And Taigu, I would ask you the same: did you do the Work on the thoughts/beliefs you expressed in this thread? Do you absolutely know it's true that people who have not yet completed or started a rakusu have not done so because they want to selfishly plunder the teachings and/or engage in casual intellectual discourse rather than practice? Where did you get this idea from? Why did you feel it was necessary to put things in this way?

I want to make it clear. I do not need, or even desire, to be in continual conflict with sangha teachers and leaders. I do not refuse to submit to a teacher. But I do refuse to accept certain speech and behavior, and I don't care whether it's my boss or my coworker, my Zen teacher or Dharma sister or brother, my family member, my friend, my neighbor or a stranger doing it. It's when I stop speaking up or challenging what I see as injustice that I really know I'm spiritually dead. I came dangerously close to that apathy while living in New York.

I stick by my principles and cannot say I won't challenge the teachers again. But I do respect the will of the sangha and if the sangha considers my not infrequent challenges to teachers a threat to the harmony of the sangha, I will leave. And I appreciate the excellent points made by AlanLa and Keishin, gassho to you both. And I apologize for unnecessary harshness in my words, and especially apologize to Taylor, who is dramatically undeserving of some of the things I've directed at him.

Taylor, you remind me so much of myself when I was 19 it's not even funny, and so my responses to you are filtered through the "things my 27 year old self would have said to my 19 year old self" filter. I still mourn the lost innocence of my 19 year old self, and the lightness of spirit I carried a mere 8 years ago. And illogically, this comes out as resentment or scorn for people who express the open, gentle, and sunny nature I had during one shimmering period of my life. I don't know what your experience is or was and I shouldn't automatically dismiss things you say or do because I once said or did them and was later proven wrong by life. Maybe you won't be proven wrong. Maybe you don't have the disillusionment ahead of you that I faced.

But I also think that those of us who have a bit harder struggle of it--with the demands of our lives, and/or our own inner demons, and/or aspects of the practice we find difficult--should not be dressed down for these imperfections and compared negatively to people who find it easier to "just do it." As a clinical social worker, I know that a client's resistance is the richest source of material for us to work with to help address the client's needs, issues, and challenges. This is another reason I'm not a fan of an authoritarian / patriarchal hierarchy model of learning. Many of us learn through expressing and working with our resistance. A sharp verbal slap from a teacher can be part of that process, but emotional manipulation of the sort I saw going on here is directly antithetical to that.

I'm tender to the "difficult" people of this world, perhaps because I am one of them in some ways. One of my passions is finding a way to keep difficult people in the community, even if it is difficult for the less difficult among us. This is why one of my big issues is prison reform and alternatives to incarceration. And why I continue to be sad about Chet's absence from the sangha. And why I keep forgiving and trying to work with my own father. I think the "enlightened" approach is to always try to listen, and understand one another better. Everyone's mistakes and failures have a reason. I hope our community can continue to be a welcoming place for all and a space where we can safely work with and through our resistances and flaws. And I hope you all can forgive my own trespasses against the harmony of the community.

I hope I have expressed myself better this time. I again apologize for the unnecessary roughness in my words and for calling out innocent bystanders :wink: And Taigu, I appreciate you finally addressing me directly and being willing to work with a challenging student, instead of just dismissing or writing me off as it seemed you were doing before.

I also apologize for the length of this post.

Gassho.

[anista]

Re: Where are all the guys gone?...Rakusu blues

This thread made me feel a bit uneasy.

Philosophically, you and me Stephanie are miles apart judging from our discussions in other threads, but on this issue I must say that I agree with you completely. The things you said in your responses was exactly how I felt. And I didn't even feel like I was the intended target of the original post. Sometimes words are that powerful. It has nothing to do with authority. It has nothing to do with being self-absorbed. It has everything to do with the way things are said, and what it connotes.

Just sayin'.




Walking away ...

[Saijun]

Re: Where are all the guys gone?...Rakusu blues

Shunryu Suzuki, August 14, 1967. Emphasis is my addition.

Our study will be concentrated for a while on the statement: “The mind itself is Buddha.”[1] It is pretty difficult to study, to listen to our lectures or our teachings. Usually when you study something, and even when you are listening to our lecture, I think that what you understand will be an echo of yourself. You think you are listening to me, but actually you are listening to yourself, so no progress will result. You always understand our lecture in your own way. Your understanding is always based on your way of thinking. So I think that you hear my voice and see my face, but actually you see yourself, and what you hear is nothing but an echo of yourself.

My study was like that for a long time. I think this is often the case when we study Buddhism. If you want to study Buddhism, you have to clear your mind. You should not have any prejudice. You should forget all you have learned before.

Excerpt from http://suzukiroshi.sfzc.org/dharma-talk ... 0#more-650

I found this talk today, and this part seemed to speak to this very topic. Not posting it to side with one group or the other (although, for full disclosure, I do have a more traditional-ish stance)--I just wanted to add a third perspective that seemed, to me, to address the two factions.

I've said before, we're a sangha. A group of people. Any time there is a group of people (even two, in a marriage!) there are bound to be disagreements, misunderstandings, lapses in judgment. But there is always common ground, always a place to sit and talk with cool heads and calm hearts. I stand by that sentiment.

Please remember this. The we take refuge in the sangha. The sangha protects and guides us, even as we protect and guide it.

Metta and Gassho to both factions.

Perry

[Heisoku]

Re: Where are all the guys gone?...Rakusu blues

Well said Perry and a poignant message from Suzuki Roshi at any time!

Many gassho's Nigel

[Taigu]

Re: Where are all the guys gone?...Rakusu blues

Hi all, Hi Stephanie,

Thank you for taking the time. And Stephanie, thank you for your words.

I went through what I said, and would say it again. You can question the teacher ( I am so glad you don't have to put up with the control freaks I had as teachers), Stephanie, and you are also invited to surrender to the tradition. If something resists tradition in you, that has to be challenged too. We live in a society where it is not good to be a teacher, teacher are not respected anymore, taken for granted and accused of all sorts of flaws and bad deeds. I know what I am talking about because because it happens to be my job too. And I am very popular with my language students, known as fair and kind, but very unpopular with the guys messing in the corridor. I don't like the politicaly correct, and I like to be honnest and say what I mean and mean what I say. I honnestly don't see why my words can be perceived as offending, hurting. If I have ro dress up every single word and be absolutely sure not to offend anybody...It would all be very blunt. But it is true that when students are told they are wrong today, they cannot generally take it. In classrooms, corridors or life.

I also sometimes feel a lot weary, for all this energy, these hours on skype, this work on the teaching when I don't even have time for myself, 11, sometimes 12 hours of teaching a day, 4 hours of commuting...any teacher would tell you it is insane. I accepted the responsability of passing on the teachings and in particular, the teaching about the robe...Almost (if not) all the relunctant people that gave it a go now undertsand...Not only they can see it was not overwhelming or just plain stupid or cultural, but they are now very dedicated and commited to the kesa.

I am glad we can have this conversation. And I don't ask you to kiss my feet. If you don't like my style, fair enough, Jundo is a great teacher, full of flaws like any of us. Teachers come in many flavours. It is all about ice cream, just a different taste.And as teachers, we have a responsability, Stephanie, it is to make sure the Dharma is properly given, taught and experienced. As students you also have a duty, to practice the teachings and bring them to life.

We do all this not for money or fame. We do it for you.

We don't even expect thank you ( although, i tell you, people would certainly feel and be better if thay could cultivate gratitude)...The best way to thank us is to practice.

And yes, I did the Work with a fair conclusion, my real mistake is not to have written directly to you. I do apologize.

gassho


Taigu

[AlanLa]

Re: Where are all the guys gone?...Rakusu blues

To avoid offense is pretty much impossible. For those that cannot avoid being offended, however, to let go of offense can be good practice. But it can also be good to try and help others in a constructive way so they do not create offense again, no matter how unintended. Such a balance this messy practice is.

[anista]

Re: Where are all the guys gone?...Rakusu blues

It is indeed much easier to not confront that which is difficult.
Much easier if we are all friends.
Much more enjoyable.
Everything is bliss.
Everyone is sleeping.

Tea, anyone?
Just water, and leaves.
No fuss.
No nothing.
But the water is too hot.

Ah, but that is what we all want, isn't it? Emptiness?

I grow weary.
Maybe this is a poem.
Maybe it isn't.

Still waters. But there's a storm a-coming.
Forget about the boat.
It is easier to drown,
and be reborn as crickets.
But there's no such thing as rebirth
it is only hallucinations
of the Buddhas past.
At least the crickets make good music.

I salute the Buddhas of the past
their robes are made of expensive silk,
separating them from the common man,
and yet
they are no more than you or me.

May all beings be from from suffering,
cries the crickets.

[anista]

Re: Where are all the guys gone?...Rakusu blues

Nothing more.

[Taigu]

Re: Where are all the guys gone?...Rakusu blues

The Buddha's robe is not made of silk.
Expensive or cheap.
Not made of silk
Neither silk nor cotton.
It is only in the imagination of modern men that a robe separates Buddhas from common men.
Whoever takes the time it takes to study and practice the kesa will tell you:
it is humbling, very humbling.
It is only in the imagination of modern men that Buddhas of the past can manifest.
Three times swallowed.
One precious bright pearl.
By the way, crickets don't make music.
Where does this music come from?
A good old koan for all of us.


Thank you for your poem, Anista.

gassho

Taigu

[Ankai]

Re: Where are all the guys gone?...Rakusu blues

Well, Jukai means to surrender to BUDDHA's way.And the kesa is Buddha's body. And Buddha's body is wraped in the kesa. Kesa and Samadhi seen as one. Even today. Even now. It is not a Japanese thing, something cultural you can get rid of.


And Buddha's way was to bathe, take what little he already had, accept gifts of food and grass, and go sit under a tree. Nothing else. Just sit. I'm following. Respectfully and with no malice or confrontation, I'm going to have to sit this one out. Buddha was not a monk at the time of his enlightenment, nor was he following "rules" imposed by anyone else in the hope of attaining something. If I were to sew this rakusu, I'd be doing so with the goal of Jundo/Taigu's approval and making Jukai in mind. That cannot be right.

[Saijun]

Re: Where are all the guys gone?...Rakusu blues

And Buddha's way was to bathe, take what little he already had, accept gifts of food and grass, and go sit under a tree. Nothing else. Just sit. I'm following. Respectfully and with no malice or confrontation, I'm going to have to sit this one out. Buddha was not a monk at the time of his enlightenment, nor was he following "rules" imposed by anyone else in the hope of attaining something. If I were to sew this rakusu, I'd be doing so with the goal of Jundo/Taigu's approval and making Jukai in mind. That cannot be right.

(RAMBLING POST WARNING)

Hello Kvon,

Respectfully, he was not a monk, but he was a mendicant. He may not have belonged to an order, chanted, subscribed to an established philosophy or religion at the time of Anuttara Samma-Sambodhi, but I think the heart of the matter is the same.

To throw oneself in fully, no trace left.

Who cares if you call it "monk," "priest," "layman" or "hermit." All are labels.

This is a practice of going beyond labels, no?

And as to the sewing, and doing it with goals in mind--

This is just what's happened to me, but I started out wanting to make a perfect Rakusu, do Taigu and Jundo proud, have a beautiful robe for Jukai. But it didn't end up like that. Lose a stitch here, iron in a wrinkle there, fabric stretching, blood getting on it.

It's impossible to do perfectly. And I think that's freeing.

I find that now, I sew for sewing. There may be a goal somewhere in the back of my mind, but it's not all that important. Gradually, I think that the disappointing nature of sewing-practice seeps in, and gradually you realize that you're sewing. No reason for sewing, no obsessive motivation. Just stitch after stitch after stitch.

And I think that Jukai, like (I suspect) all of the other ceremonies, is just making public what already is. Does wearing the Rakusu make you submit to the Buddha-Way? I don't think so, any more than I think that wearing a wedding-ring makes you love your wife. (HOPEFULLY) You loved your partner before marrying.

And I think that the Dharma is the same.

Just my thoughts,

Perry

[Shokai]

Re: Where are all the guys gone?...Rakusu blues

In the words of Kind Edward III of England;
"Honi soit qui mal y pense"

Each of us takes thee precepts in our own way. As Buddha intimated, Don't take my words as truth, go, search for yourself. The danger in that may be taking things too literally.

gassho,

[Shonin]

Re: Where are all the guys gone?...Rakusu blues

GROUP HUG!!!!!!!!!!