Tradition versus innovation

[Ankai]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

One should therefore not expect him of all people to present a perspective that says something along the lines of "well, yeah, my view of our particular Soto-lineage is Whatever works best for you" and the kesa is optional in the long run. "



Respectfully, that is neither my question nor my expectation.

[Stephanie]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

One should therefore not expect him of all people to present a perspective that says something along the lines of "well, yeah, my view of our particular Soto-lineage is Whatever works best for you" and the kesa is optional in the long run. "



Respectfully, that is neither my question nor my expectation.

Mine either.

I am a bit concerned that what I think are fair, and respectfully asked questions, are being ignored in favor of tearing down straw men.

Once again, I have no issue with the kesa as it is traditionally designed, sewn, and worn. It is not a tradition I think should be done away with.

But I am truly interested in Taigu's thoughts, as someone who reveres the kesa, on how it has been abused, and similarly, how authority has been abused in Zen and other traditions.

I have no problem following and "obeying" someone I trust and respect. But my trust and respect is earned through experience, not given freely to someone just because they wear a particular garment. I may respect the tradition and values the garment represents, but I am also all too aware of human fallibility to assume the person wearing it embodies the values it stands for.

So my question is, sincerely, where should questioning stop and trust and obedience begin? Should questioning ever stop? I am inspired by teachers--including Taigu, ironically--who have emphasized in talks that a question is an open state, a blooming to the present moment, and relaxing into questions and being with them, instead of seizing for answers, is a way to open the mind. To me, blind obedience is the ceasing of questions and the darkening of the mind. Blind obedience has been the cause of many horrific moments in human history, and has been at the center of abuses of religious traditions across time and culture.

Having seen so many abuses of Zen authority already, in its infancy in America, I think the traditional attitude--if it is even such--of submitting to a teacher's direction without questioning would do well to be amended, if not dropped altogether.

[Ankai]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

It is exactly "gates" like the kesa, that make one particular lineage distinct from one another. Nothing wrong with that.


No, there's nothing at ALL wrong with that, and I can accept it. What I'm having a hard time with, and not getting answers for, is the idea that "Zazen apart from Kesa is not the Buddha's Zazen," a statement which in both at surface and in depth appears to run quite counter to everything I've been taught by Jundo here since 2007. I'm looking for clarity, not rebellion.

[Seishin the Elder]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Dear Stephanie and and all,

First of all, so everyone knows where I am sitting...there is certainly nothing "blind' in the manner or committed way in which I have decided to follow this Zen Path or this School or these particular Teachers. So what I say here is not anything of a hoodwinked zealot. My decision was thought out and prayed over before making it. Just wanted to clear the air about that.

Next...I have always heard Taigu's teaching poetically. His words strike my heart rather than my head, and I believe that too often we are asking him to "simplify" his responses so we can figure out what he is saying. From what he has already said so far I get that he "sees" and "feels" the Kesa embodies both the Buddha and the Buddhas teaching, and all of us in the Sangha, and the whole world too. One does not happen without the other. The symbol "is" also the reality. I may be usung too much of my own theology in this, but I get an almost "sacramental" feeling about Kesa when Taigu speaks about it. I can feel where some of his sadness may be coming from about the questioning about Kesa, even though questions are proper for learners. Sometimes when one is so close to "joy" it is difficult to realize that others do not feel it too.

Stephanie, I really would like to know what it is that continually steers many of your posts back to questions about abuse of authority. I've read it in several threads and it concerns me. Do you have a general concern that anyone in a position of authority is going to abuse it? Do you feel that there is a particular vein of such abuse here, or just generally in religious and spiritual organizations? Please understand that I am not challenging your right to ask such questions or open these sorts of discussions; I only ask because it comes up so often in your posts, it seems to me. Like in this present thread, I cannot help but feel by the way you are asking Taigu to respond, that you are equating his seeming failure to satisfy your query substantially that he is somehow "hiding" behind the Kesa and refusing to respond purposefully. Maybe I'm reading too much into it. As Hans said, email has no "voice". I really diodn't feel that from Taigu, but rather a disappointment that what he said was not understood. Please don't think I'm trying to hammer you Stephanie, I just would like to know what the underscore is that I "think" I am hearing.

Gassho,

Seishin Kyrill

[Shohei]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Hi Karl

First thank you! Thank you for your patience and practice.
You do not have to sew the rakusu to be the embody and be the living precepts (as you already know)
Nor do you need to do the ceremony. Here, at Treeleaf, it is asked... as part of the Jukai ceremony, that you take up that practice (which you are) and wear it when you sit as a reminder.

I will not speak for anyone else here as what I write Next is just my ramblings and humble... belly button (Read opinion as we all have em!) and say:
Sew it or don't, wear it or don't. These are your choices and of course final decision.

Not one teacher or any one, for that matter, really can make you wear it (Your a strong person, with a sharp mind), nor can they provide an answer to why its important to your practice.
That is up to you. If you find, after a go at it, that it is not... great its not. done. Part of the struggle !

This Does not mean it will be or should be a practice pulled from our lineage or that other folks taking the same commitments will be able to skip this gate
(thank you Mongen, precisely what I was struggling to point to!).

You have given yourself over for the benefit of others in ways that I can not begin to imagine, sitting here. Your kesa has been sewn and your wearing it. I really am bowing in your direction with gratitude(in my head and after I hit submit here). That is all this other cloth is about ...a simple reminder. If you find it other wise for what ever reason and choose not to put it on, then how could that be anything else but fine. Deep bows to you and to all Buddhas here, now, before and to come!

Now on questions and questioning - Never stop questioning! Turn em right in on yourself! Now no wheres here, at Treeleaf, or privately, have we been asked to follow blindly in a harmful way or away that goes against the Buddhas teachings. In my mind, the only blind part is the fact that only you can know the answer to a question about somethings meaning or significance in your practice, only you via experience and wide eyed questioning oh... and using the Buddhas teaching as the cane, of course...and some common sense! Navigation then should be straight forward. A bit of Faith is needed and a willingness to let go. Sometimes the answer is only found by being letting it lay, lots of time and some experience...boom answer is right there. How can you pass that along to someone? And when its given will that person see it too or call you foolish, irrational and unbending?

Sometimes the question is another question... no matter, they all point back to you. You know the answer.
Some questions require a straight forward answer - why do we sit Zazen: because it is the gate of great ease and its what all the buddhas, even before buddha did. EZ...but then the questions that cannot be answered with out your own investigation and questioning of yourself enter.. Okay Master Dogen... why? Why? WHY? Exhaust yourself of these whys... and then you have your answer or maybe not...im still asking. Again just my rambling so please forgive!!


Gassho
Shohei

[Martin]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Dear Martin,

We usually make the distinction between lay practice and priest practice.
If you go in the direction of priest practice, then a kesa is needed. If you don't, you are already living in the whole kesa of the universe, as Sawaki Kodo says: there is no world outside the kesa. He means by that that everything as it is is already the kesa, and sentient and non sentient beings do all wear it.
So you are already wearing the kesa, and you feel-think you don't need it. That is perfectly ok. I just would like to reflect that for some people here, there is a different story, another commitment and the light of that commitment, this sewn fabric is Buddha's body. You don't understand it. I tried to explain it. But of course, as you sit in this boundless reality, it is already covering your shoulders.
I wish people would open their mind and accept that what they think is nonsense, can make perfect sense to other people.
Jundo asked me to present this teaching which was Buddha's teaching, Dogen's and all the old guys. If people don't want to hear it, they can skip my posts, not read the kesa chapters in Shobogenzo...
Thank you for your practice and I wish this clarifies what I have been saying all along.
Frankly, I am also tired an a bit sad.

Take care and thank you for the sewing you do in your work and your life

gassho


Taigu

Taigu

Thank you.

There are some who feel that their questions haven't been addressed, and I can't speak for them, but your post spoke to me.

Thank you for the teaching, thank you for your sewing, and for all the work you do at Treeleaf. One day, I hope to sew a kesa. Perhaps on that day you will guide me.

Gassho

Martin

[Rich]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

I see so much suffering in myself and the world that sometimes I could just wrap myself in a kesa or blanket and just cry.

I have never made a kesa but from experience I know that the Buddha's robe was and is life itself. Without a good robe I probably wouldn't have survived some of my travels in the mountains and deserts.

I think everyone needs shelter from the storms and to revere that reality is a good thing.

/Rich

[Saijun]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

I see so much suffering in myself and the world that sometimes I could just wrap myself in a kesa or blanket and just cry.

I have never made a kesa but from experience I know that the Buddha's robe was and is life itself. Without a good robe I probably wouldn't have survived some of my travels in the mountains and deserts.

I think everyone needs shelter from the storms and to revere that reality is a good thing.

/Rich

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Perry

[Taigu]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Hi Stephanie, hi KvonNJ,

When I was a student ( and I am still a student) I used to take anything from my teachers and target myself. I was not begging for answers, but welcoming questions and questions again. The job of a student is to question his body-mind, not to beg a rational explanation that convice him to proceed. The job is to undo and drop habits, patterns and belief systems. Nevertheless, even as a student, you don't have to take everything, especially when it gets really nasty: I did question my last teacher's abusive behaviour and left (no it had nothing to do with the simple and harmless teaching of the robe, issues with anger and power). So, on that one, we are on the same wave lentgh.

But When with a dramatic and vibrant voice, you talk about the spectre of past abuses and the risk of it in Treeleaf, it sounds over the top:

Do I even need to raise the specter of Milgrim's experiments and what they showed about the "obey first, understand later" mentality?

If you want to understand the reasons why this bib or big blanket is revered in our school, open Shobogenzo and read the chapters about the robe. I am not going to give you the answer you expect in the way you expect it just because you want it. Do your homework and don't ask to be spoon fed. My job, and apparently my abuse, is to allow you to find by yourself. One may say that the kesa is a living mandala, a representation of all things and beings, an boundless rice field, Buddhas's body, true alchemy ( shabby clothes turn into the robe of sitting, the illusion into awakening), the symbol-reality of transmission ( in Dogen, no gap between symbol and reality, cake and painted cake, read Shobogenzo and Kim please) and it is a mere piece of cloth. And again if people don't like my poetic style, it is OK.


If the rakusu is troubling you, KvonNJ, just forget about it and focus on sitting. Put your jeans on, even your hat and sit American style. No problem.

gassho


Taigu

[Stephanie]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Stephanie, I really would like to know what it is that continually steers many of your posts back to questions about abuse of authority. I've read it in several threads and it concerns me. Do you have a general concern that anyone in a position of authority is going to abuse it? Do you feel that there is a particular vein of such abuse here, or just generally in religious and spiritual organizations? Please understand that I am not challenging your right to ask such questions or open these sorts of discussions; I only ask because it comes up so often in your posts, it seems to me. Like in this present thread, I cannot help but feel by the way you are asking Taigu to respond, that you are equating his seeming failure to satisfy your query substantially that he is somehow "hiding" behind the Kesa and refusing to respond purposefully. Maybe I'm reading too much into it. As Hans said, email has no "voice". I really diodn't feel that from Taigu, but rather a disappointment that what he said was not understood. Please don't think I'm trying to hammer you Stephanie, I just would like to know what the underscore is that I "think" I am hearing.

No need to apologize, I appreciate the question(s).

First, let me be clear: I am not accusing Taigu of anything. Quite the contrary; I respect him as someone who seems to respect and honor his position and those of others. Which is why I am interested in what he thinks about how the kesa, and spiritual authority in general, have been abused. Similarly, I respect Jundo for being accessible and open, and so far, my challenges to him and Taigu come out of my respect and trust, rather than the opposite. If I did not trust Treeleaf or its teachers, I would not practice or ask questions here.

Why do I focus on the topic of abuse of authority? I do not really know. I cannot trace it back to some momentous or traumatic event in my childhood. I have been aware of and impassioned by this issue for some time now; it is one of my motivating forces as a social worker, to address and right imbalances of power. Perhaps some of it comes from my father having money and being involved with more wealthy people in the small town I grew up in. I never liked those people, or people who lorded their wealth and power over others. Almost none of the wealthy people I ever met seemed to deserve their power or use it to good ends. Ostentatious displays of wealth and power are an instant turn-off for me, an indicator that a person is of questionable moral character and social intelligence.

As for spiritual authority... most "spiritual authorities" I have met have been good people, worthy of respect. But even those that have struck me as good people, great people, all ultimately revealed secret indiscretions and lapses of judgment. My experiences with people have shown me that almost no one wears the mantle of power well. People ignore the impact on the use of their power on others with less power than them, and act unjustly. I see this happen even at my job. I am very wary of the power I hold even as a relatively lowly social worker and not abusing that power is a very important ethic to me.

I guess it boils down to: people are naturally good, but also inherently flawed, and give an imperfect person (i.e. any one of us) power, and it will be abused. And I find tradition to be an easy cover for power-seekers. People seek tradition because it is familiar and comforting, and are willing to submit to it and those that represent it just because it is tradition, not because it is right or true.

[Stephanie]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

But When with a dramatic and vibrant voice, you talk about the spectre of past abuses and the risk of it in Treeleaf, it sounds over the top:

Goodness, Taigu, my raising that example was by no means meant to refer to Treeleaf or its teachers, but as an illustrative example of why obedience is not inherently a good thing. My questions to you were sincere: why is it good to obey without fully understanding what or who it is one is obeying? And how can one know who to trust and obey? How many people out there of good will and heart have obediently followed a "master," only to find they were obeying a faker or charlatan, a cult leader or monster? Again, I by no means am implicating Treeleaf as an example of such abuses; rather, asking you, as someone making a point that obedience is a good thing, to clarify when, where, and how obedience is good, because it certainly isn't good as a general principle.

[Ankai]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

If the rakusu is troubling you, KvonNJ, just forget about it and focus on sitting. Put your jeans on, even your hat and sit American style. No problem.


As I have tried repeatedly with all sincerity and humility to explain, Taigu, it's not the Rakusu, but what you said that was troubling me. But that doesn't matter. Know what? What you said to me comes off pretty aggressive, Taigu, and I don't know you. I've been asking with respect, and ask what I'm asking as well as I can and as clearly as I can. I'm not asking to be spoon-fed, I was simply asking for clarity on a point at which you are differing vastly from what I've been taught thus far IN THIS ZENDO. And that's all. If it hurt your feelings to be questioned, that is not my intent, you should know that it was what you were saying, not you, your experience, your authority or your expertise, and if this is what I'm going to get in the way of instruction, maybe I should take your advice. Forget it. Has Treeleaf changed this much?
You won't have to worry about me asking a question again, to be sure. Peace.

[Taigu]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Hi KvonNJ,

In Zen all questions are not answered, even if you put them respectfully. Some things in this life cannot be expressed. Sometimes no answer is the answer.

I wrote to Martin the following:

We usually make the distinction between lay practice and priest practice.
If you go in the direction of priest practice, then a kesa is needed. If you don't, you are already living in the whole kesa of the universe, as Sawaki Kodo says: there is no world outside the kesa. He means by that that everything as it is is already the kesa, and sentient and non sentient beings do all wear it.

I don't think that Treeleaf have changed that much ( mind you, bear in mind that everything changes). Zazen is the core. The kesa as a clothing is the choice of some people that want to commit further to the path. There is room for lay practice without a rakusu or kesa. And there is room for people to discover by themselves that the kesa is also much more than fabric sewn. If somebody ask you to put zazen in a nutshell and show-say what it is, what would you do? The best is to invite that person to sit and see for herself or himself what it is all about. Wouldn't you agree? I do the same with the kesa. The kesa represents something much bigger than your or my well being. The risk of Zazen without the kesa is clearly to fall into a therapy for stressed people, a way to sort yourself out, something convinient.

Some people in America go in the desert and wild parts and they sit with a blanket around their shoulders and a hat to get protection from the sun. There is nothing aggressive in mentioning this option.

Obviously, it is getting hot here, we would also all need a hat

gassho


Taigu

[Ankai]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

In Zen all questions are not answered, even if you put them respectfully. Some things in this life cannot be expressed. Sometimes no answer is the answer.


You could have said that, Taigu, and as a student I'd have accepted it.

[nadia_estm]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

this is definitely an interesting thread...it makes me think of the teacher who raised a finger to answer a question...just that, and that was enough.....