Tradition versus innovation

[Myozan Kodo]

Incense, robes, bowing, chanting in Japanese: How much of the Japanese Zen tradition should we take on, and how much should we, as ‘Western Buddhists’, leave or redefine?
Personally, I do not think tradition should be thrown away lightly. It deserves respect. Yet most of us are not, indeed, Japanese. So, our practice will find a new expression, as the Dharma did when it moved from country to country.
There may be no northern or southern in the Dharma, but each culture does make its mark.
Any thoughts on balancing tradition with western innovation?
Deep bows all,
Soen

[Saijun]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Hello friends,

Speaking as an American, I am unsure that this culture has homogenized enough to allow an establishment of any kind of cultural "tradition;" indeed it seems that the only "tradition" in America is one of tossing out things held dear by the previous generation. Or perhaps I'm a cynic. That's possible as well.

I think that perhaps right now, it is more important to let the Dharma change us, rather than focusing on changing the Dharma's clothes; there will of course be give and take, communities experimenting with different classifications of practitioners (I've read of one group in California giving "Lay Entrustment"--Transmission for the unordained teacher). We are still, I think, riding the first large wave to sweep over the West; to use a metaphor, the Bhodi Tree needs to take root before we start trimming it!

This is just my opinion, and not even a fully formed one at that.

Much metta,

Perry

[Ankai]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Interesting... earlier tonight I was reading "The Eight Gates of Zen" by the late John Daido Loori, Roshi. In it, he speaks about Zen in the West, particularly in America, and warns about dismissing too much tradition this way: "If this process continues, each successive generation will make further changes or omissions so that slowly even Zen Buddhism will begin to shift into something it was never intended to be, or it will possibly fall apart.
The danger we face is that we will end up with an ersatz Zen with little or no relationship to its original."
Keep in mind, he is not opposing change. Certainly the Zen Broought to Japan by Dogen underwent cultural, liturgical and stylistic changes, so to in the West. But the root and core must be maintained, and the traditions we observe help strengthen that continuity. When a tradition is altered, it is a very serious thing, something to be thought and rethought, tried, tested, and changed, and never entered into lightly or for the sake of ease or convenience.
Change is good, when its good.

[Hans]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Hello,

my current feeling is that , yes indeed, some changes might need to be made in the future due to cultural differences. However, I am under the general impression that the ratio between "in-depth study and practice" and "desire to change stuff" is not right in most cases of Westerners wanting to see more change NOW. It is one thing to have earned one's Karate 5th Dan black belt and to then come to the conclusion that certain traditional aspects might need to be changed, as opposed to just having passed the 4th Kyu test and then going on to set up a new "True Modern Advanced Karate" school. Which is what I see happening in some Buddhist circles. I could of course be wrong.

Since I have only started my training as a novice priest, my suggestions and opinions are bound to change in the next couple of years...but right now I feel that in order to avoid throwing out the baby with the bathwater, we as practitioners have to make sure that we truly penetrate the core of what is offered for a fair few years, before coming up with even more opinions about how certain things should be. I certainly encounter so many new things about our tradition on a regular basis, that it makes me see my own latest opinions even more as...well... just opinions.

Gassho,

Hans

[Taigu]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Hi All,

We have to trade here very carefully. Two traps: turning Japanese (like the AZI in Europe) and throwing away everything in the name of: it is just cultural. My thoughts is that changes should be organic, coming out of practice and not our small or big heads. The study of tradition gives me an insight: kolomo and stuff are not essential to Zen, many of the countless chants can be dropped, ceremonies can be simplified: what cannot be changed is Zazen and kesa, at least in my lineage. And sorry guys, but this is not debatable. Sit with jeans, shorts, whatever. Sing in English or French or Italian. You can even not shave your head. Buddha's sitting and Buddha's kesa cannot be disposed of.

Very good question Soen. There is room for a large range of styles. The funny thing is that my practice is so unJapanese and I live in Japan whereas guys in Europe are learning complicated rituals and Byzantine-like chants...

One last thing, and it is not politically correct: I am less and less patient with deaf people, people that only following their thoughts about this and that. Everybody has to practice first, go through the full journey and then do as they like, or rather, do as they think they should do best to serve the Buddha-Dharma. Brad's style, Jundo's style, Glassman's style, Loori's style, this fool's style? ...Practice first. Everything else as Hans says is opinion.

Final thing, this is my job and responsability to transmit as accuratly and deeply as possible.
If you want to study the way it is your job too...

You may now understand that I am not protective of my dirty-sacred rags. I am just doing my job.

gassho

Taigu

[Stephanie]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Taigu,

Could you please clarify what you find indispensable about the kesa, or what about the kesa you find indispensable?

Are you talking about a deeper symbolic value of the kesa, what it stands for, or the garment itself?

I admit, in my "4th kyu" novice eyes, the kesa seems little more than a costume. And one that has been abused, because of the power and status that some people take it to symbolize. I find something a bit off-putting when Zen teachers wear the kesa in "naturalistic" settings where their role as teachers is not emphasized, such as shopping or hanging out. I think it does serve a good purpose within a zendo, at a lecture, etc. But I certainly don't see it as secondary to zazen in importance.

I suppose I am "very traditional" in that I still adhere to the Tripod that, if one leg were to go missing, Buddhism would topple over, and no longer be Buddhism: Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. I see these in more practical terms as Buddhist practice, including zazen, other mind/awareness practices, compassion practices, relationship with a teacher, etc.; study of the Buddhist teachings, including sutras, koans, and "the koans of everyday life,"; and the community, a haven of support, mutual learning, and humility.

Gassho,

Stephanie

[Hans]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Hello Stephanie,

I obviously cannot answer for Taigu, but I personally feel that Soto-Zen in particular intentionally offers a lesser number of means/methods when compared to other Buddhist traditions. Therefore IMHO, the means/methods we do traditionally have (kesa, oryoki...), become naturally invested with more importance. To strip us of even those few we do have, would mean to sacrifice the rigging of the particular sailing ship we're on....for what? Looking at emptiness deeply, we can see how it is precisely forms like the Kesa that express the reality ground as it is.

Just the mumblings of a novice mind you


Gassho,

Hans

[Ankai]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

what cannot be changed is Zazen and kesa, at least in my lineage. And sorry guys, but this is not debatable. Sit with jeans, shorts, whatever. Sing in English or French or Italian. You can even not shave your head. Buddha's sitting and Buddha's kesa cannot be disposed of.

Sitting is practice. In this sense, everything can be practice, yes? So... I'd have to ask what it is that makes sitting with a kesa superior or even different from sitting in my own clothes? I'm not even debating or arguing, I'm simply asking why it is different. Having heard teachers over the years often say, "more Zazen," I confes that I have never once heard one say, "Lose the jeans." Clothing can be deeply symbolic, it can be iintensely personal, but I think part of the whole point of Buddha putting together clothes made of scraps is apparent. Clothing shouldn't be a focal point, it is merely a covering. I don't think the appearance of that covering matters all that much... and at its hears what we are talking about is that: the appearance of one's clothing. Honoring tradition is fine... but that really is what it is, no?

[Stephanie]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

When I think about aspects of the Zen tradition I revere, though I respect oryoki and the kesa, what I think of is the lineage, the teachings (the koans, the Shobogenzo, the other writings and oral teachings), the student / teacher relationship, and the practice and retreat forms, such as zazenkai and sesshin. By no means do I think that Zen would lose its most vital aspects as a tradition were it to lose oryoki, or even the kesa, at least as far as the physical garment. To the extent the kesa means wearing the teachings, or keeping the teachings close to the skin... yes, I agree that is indispensable.

Even though the lineage is not fully factual, and reflects certain patriarchal cultural aspects of China and Japan, I think it is a very important innovation of the Dharma's transmission to China. Though imperfect, I think Dharma transmission is a good quality control system, as good as any religion I've seen in determining who should have power to teach. And it is a rich, living history. The recorded stories and sayings of the ancestral teachers keeps their lives and teachings intimate and accessible. I hope Zen never does away with lineage charts or Dharma transmission.

I also have a deep respect for the unique student/teacher relationship that developed in Zen. I think interviews with teacher(s) are very important, whether conducted traditionally or more casually. There is an intimacy in face-to-face contact with the teacher, and I think that there are elements of Zen that can be learned and experienced no other way.

I think that the practice forms that have developed over the centuries function very well. Zazen intensives offer a way of engaging the mind that nothing else can mimic. I can easily dispense with kinhin (at home, I replace it with a flow of yoga postures), but the general format of 30 minute periods interspersed with a physical/body meditation practice, works well.

And if anything is right up there next to zazen for me, it is the body of teachings, written, oral, and lived. It is easy, of course, to get lost in books and intellectual understanding, but without the teachings to point us in the right direction, to show us where and how to look, zazen would have no skeleton, and could easily turn into a relaxation practice, or be misunderstood or confused with other meditation practices. The body of teachings over the centuries elevate the drive to awaken that is at the heart of this practice. Zen without awakening is not Zen.

In my humble beginner opinion of course :wink:

[Seishin the Elder]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

If you wish to undermine and destroy anything that has been established, especially religion, all you need to do is eliminate it's traditions. To say that one is able to continue the practice of religion without the benefits of its traditions is to say that all those practicing are already adepts and no longer have need of the traditions that support their practice. I have seen this first hand, as a result of some of the ill-fated revisions Relgious Orders went through after Vatican II in the Catholic Church. Everyone thought, "Oh boy, we are finally getting rid of all these outdated, meaningless thngs and can get down to the real meat of religious practice". But when they denuded the chuches and chapels, stripped down the praise and worship services, abbreviated the prayer cycles and tore up the religious habits what did they have left; a bunch of guys and gals living in great big houses who found they had very little in common and who also found they didn't like one another very much. So they left...in droves. Convents, abbeys and monasteries closed. Some which had populations of almost 100 now have about 8-12 Septegenarians, with very little prospect or continuation.

The Orders that are growing are those which renewed their former traditions, especially their common prayer life and adherance to The Rule. Strict "traditional" monasteries are flourishing with young vocations. The aspirants are looking for a place wherein they will experience solid formation in religious and spiritual life and the forms of tradition come to express that these are the places that this is happening.

I'm a rather "traditional" sort of guy. I went through the purging away of the ornate and opulant and tried to walk my own way, but it was both lonely and rather cold. I returned to the traditional ways for the fellowship, support and warmth of both a community moving in the same direction and a community that stood upon a vast history of those who had been doing the same for generations. Now as "particular practitioner" I have the choice of how and when I practice, how I live within the Rule on my own; but I am still irrevocably connected to the Tradition. I may be seen from the outside by one of my Abbey's novice's as rogue in some things (like my participation and practice in Zen), but he also doesn't see the base that has been built through living in the tradition that helps assure I will not "go round the bend". I think that too often we see the "frre spirit" in our Practice who acts somewhat the Fool and wish to adopt their freedom but without knowing the price they have paid in hard work to have achieved their freedom. We are impatient for the end; unwilling to walk the long road to get there, and so we think dismissing the "traditons" will hasten the end for us. Ha! Don't work that way! It all takes hard, wonderful work and for some of that time we need to bring along our books, oryoki bowls, kesas,
koromos, rosaries, breviaries, altars, teachers, students, pains , labors and joys.

Gassho,

Seishin Kyrill

[Ankai]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

If you wish to undermine and destroy anything that has been established, especially religion, all you need to do is eliminate it's traditions.


With great respect, I disagree. The elimination of some traditions need not signify the end of anything. With regard to Christianity, When Jesus allowed his followers to pick and eat heads of grain on the Sabbath, and when David permitted his men to eat the shewbread, were they destroying tradition, or broadening and clarifying it? More in the present, are there not Monks and Nuns in various faiths who wear an updated habit, or none at all? I don't think they're any "less monastic."
Which is to say that if the buddha had lived in our age, would he have worn an archaic robe, or more likely, clothing from the local Goodwill? And I am convinced that what we are talking about is the appearance of clothing; the spirit and intent behind whats worn is, I believe, what matters.
So, while I'm sure that there are those who simply think they "know better," regarding tradition, just as often, it isn't a matter of ego, or the novice trying to be what he's not. Conversely, I am certain there are people who put on a Kesa or a habit out of precisely the same sense of pride and ego, are there not? So... to paraphrase a smarter man than me, "let each be fully convinced in his own mind." Some things need not be a matter of argument.

[Seishin the Elder]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

I will certainly grant that when Jesus or the Prophet David allowed their followers, or even instructed their followers to do certain acts on the Sabbath or to eat the shewbread, they were teaching; but it was they who did or allowed that to be done. Without the authority of the Master or the General, the followers would not have done these things in those societies. And even later in the career of at least Jesus' disciples they had to have councils to decide whether to allow the Greeks into the community, and what duties and traditions they had to follow., they did not arbitrarily decide what to and what not to follow for themselves as individuals.

Certainly traditions are things of men, things that we do, that we create around situations and people and ideas; but just because something has become traditional that is no reason for us in our "wisdom" to disallow or to not revere or practice them. There are quite a number of things that have become traditional even in secular society in the US, like; Thanksgiving Day, Super Bowl, The Rose Bowl Parade, Halloween, Engagement rings. Do we really need them? Why not simplify our lives and cancel these things along with other such events that fill our calendars and for which Hallmark makes cards. No, we like these "traditions", these are comfortable traditions. So why do we get squeamish when it comes to someone else's tradition that happens to be embodied in something like the practice of Zen?

I suppose that if Gautama Buddha was living today he may not assume the three robe garment we associate with him; he could be wearing jeans and a sweatshirt; but, he did live 2,500 years ago and he did wear a kesa and we wear it to reverence the idea of his teaching us. Now that is not to say we cannot sew our kesa out of jean or sweatshirt material, just to throw a little jab at tradition.

Gassho,

Seishin Kyrill

[Stephanie]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

I am not sure that the comparison between traditions here is apt.

Catholicism is a religious system based on accepting a set of beliefs.

Zen Buddhism is a religious system based on questioning and examining all beliefs.

Catholicism depends on tradition to survive, because questioning the tradition is tantamount to questioning the beliefs it is based upon. I think it is a very different situation in Zen Buddhism. The importance of preserving tradition in Zen is the importance of preserving the transmission of light from teacher to student throughout the generations. The form of the waterway can flux and flow as long as its shape still permits the flow of water. Because there is no teaching that the flow can only happen in a waterway of a particular shape. It can flow through an s-curve, a loop, a parabola, it can even pool a little bit before flowing back out the other side :lol:

In my experience as a Zen practitioner, it is continued direct pointing at the mind that is important. There are many methods and means established in Zen to do so, and in my opinion, some of the traditional Zen practices--such as oryoki--are not as significant as zazen, dokusan, sesshin, and so forth. Not to say oryoki cannot be a very profound practice--it can be--but is it vital? I have my doubts.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not into doing away with tradition. There is a beauty and an intimacy to the traditional forms. I really enjoyed practicing at Zen Mountain Monastery, where the structure and forms are traditional and somewhat rigid. There is a power to the bowing and chants, the bells, oryoki. And it is intimate to know one is doing the same daily practice as Zen ancestors many generations ago.

But it is also easy to get lost in the tradition, the mesmerizing magic of incense smoke and elaborate ritual. I find now that, while I still appreciate ancient traditions, to "stay honest" with myself and maintain a consistent practice, more stripped-down modern forms are more to the purpose. I admire people like Toni Packer who offer bare-bones mind-illuminating practice without the bells and robes.

[Ankai]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Catholicism depends on tradition to survive, because questioning the tradition is tantamount to questioning the beliefs it is based upon. I think it is a very different situation in Zen Buddhism.

Not sure I agree, Stephanie. To be sure, there are Christian schools of thought in which questioning is practically denial in the eyes of the faithful. But we can see the same in Buddhism, even to some degree in Zen. I was raised a Christian, and was taught to ALWAYS seek and question. I think it depends on factors like denomination, culture and who the leader/Pastor/Priest may be ahd how secure he'she is in their faith and position... and i think the same holds true in any belief system.
That being said, please don't think I'm suggesting tradition should be scrapped, or that it's unimportant with regard to our practice. That's not what I'm saying at all.

[Shohei]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Hiyas

*My resistance to these things was pretty big. However, I ALWAYS had resistance(still do to many things... its means busting down walls daily)...lol to everything. Seriously. this was my way for a long time. After years of bending out of the way to avoid, it made me very sore. I didn't rebel rather than grew chafed and angry. Still am by times, but When I started on this path I thought there is truth and then there is the the truth found in experiencing things so I stopped my guarded sarcasm for awhile and jumped in. A leap of faith really as, at that point i had to take anothers word for it as i had no experience.

Incense, bells, chanting and all, well again, The approach is well known... try it...if it doesn't sit right after some time of honestly trying it and questioning then BOOT to the curb. That said, on the key practices, Dogen was pretty clear. Buddha sitting, Buddha robes This is not a Japanese tradition its Buddhas, well Ananda really! Buddha agreed it was fitting and said wear it. live it. done. Its funny when we ask what Buddha really said, how he really meant what ever teaching and when its said, meaning shared, we balk and ask again, as it doesn't seem fit for our agenda. Same goes here. If it doesn't fit... don't wear it but don't stick around to argue it.

Zen grows but its not a buffet of likes and dislikes(another teaching I catch my self trying to skirt around). Sewing the robes has been an amazing part of my practice and its Zazen in motion, in stitches. Revere the thing as it is all the lessons, stitched right in there, in every patch. Its is not a status symbol and sewing it teaches you that. When its "complete" you see how its not and when yearning to complete it... leaning forward, neck knotted with anticipation, curses on yet another pricked finger, dismay at the fact that you just realized you were doing all this over a pile of nothing!!! its is quite amazing.

This May not be right for everyone guess that is why there are many types of zen and zen practices, and really Buddhist practices.
Buddha's sitting and Buddha's robes, in this practice, cannot be disposed of. Compassion, openness, sewing, wearing the robe, bowing(read humbleness if you would, please... bowing doesn't always start at Gassho or bending the waist!) precepts... these things are important practice here and to Master Dogen (based on his writings and sayings written down by others) Not a Japanese thing, Chinese thing, Indian thing, European thing, or other wise... just Buddhist practices.

On street clothes...jeans and a hoodie are fine however Zazen tends to require loose fitting apparel. So long as its not intrusive on another practitioner in any way (aka having to do zazen staring down Buddhas luminous butt crack) or super over stuffed puffy jacket, bright yellow, that if you blink it swooshes, you know... same idea would apply for street clothes as did for kesa and robes, subdued colours etc. No wheres are people asked to give this up today. Well unless If you endup on the low road being a servant for all beings then its asked that you robe up, tone down ... but only when you are doing X. When practicing at home what you wear is up to you!! When practicing with others It would be best to follow that groups rules. There are alot of writings old and new advising what is appropriate for their practice place, for monks/nuns teachers/priests etc and mostly its pretty open.

No one is forced to wear the kesa (heh the joke is you already are ) - be it rakusu, 5 stripe, 7 9 or 25! You do not have to sew the rakusu to take jukai (of course you must sew the robes when taking the jukai...but no one says you must take jukai to be a dedicated practitioner of the way)... they are important but if you resist them and have explored that resistance super! Then vow to keep the precepts, keep them them dear, sit zazen and be compassionate to others that choose to do things different! Then Tatagatha's teachings then will have already fallen over your shoulders.

Guess im long windedly saying - Whole heartedly do or do not do...just do not half-ass do. If you are going to take jukai, be ready to wear what you sewn. Here they go together. It is as equally important as reading, studying and making yours these precepts that you will vow to uphold. If you think you cannot sew and wear the teachings, then reflect hard on why your want to take Jukai in the first place! (also if all your after is the rakusu then same applies )


sorry if all this has been said (lol an much better) again just another cheap bit tossed in for what its worth!

Bowing

Dirk Shohei Lenentine

*Disclaimer here -forgiveness if this comes across as anything more than my 2 cents or offends.