Tradition versus innovation

[Onshin]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Hiya
When I first encountered a 'live' kesa at Throssel Hole I was quite moved, the simple cloth draping across the left shoulder reminded me so much of the Buddha rupas that had inspired me since teenage that it helped me to see the Buddha within the wearer. At the end of my Jukai where we all stood on top of the altar (slightly bigger than Trealeafs), and all the monks including Rev Master Daishin, the abbot, circled us bowing to the Buddha within us it did, because of the Kesa, feel to me like Buddha bowing to Buddha. It helped me to realise, in a brief way, my own Buddha nature was there, just waiting for me to wipe away the delusion and let it out, (sorry- a bit prosaic that, but I did say I was artistic).
Perhaps there is something in my artistic nature that allows me to suspend suspicion and open to my heart, I don't know. But I do know that after sewing this second rakusu I look forward to sewing a Kesa, as I am sure it will help me greatly in my practise.


Gassho

Joe

[Heisoku]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

I have not sat zazen with a rakasu, so I will make one, put it on and see.

Gassho Nigel.

[BrianD]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

As a newbie please take whatever I say with a grain of salt , but to me sewing the rakusa is akin to walking meditation or Samu ( i think that's the right term- work as meditation right ?) or something of the sort. I don't think just wearing it automatically enables the wearer to access the fast track to realization , but that being said I can appreciate the merits involved in taking the time to sew it , what it implies in the action of ''doing it ''not just culturally but in terms of practice. We are corporal , we are here physically and we cannot be in Zazen 24/7 so outside of Zazen it makes perfect sense to me that we aspire to or busy ourselves with tasks that serve a purpose in not serving a purpose from time to time.
I for one look forward to being able to attempt this type of project. Still sewing my Zafu and Zabuton :roll: so once that's done perhaps on to the rakusa, but I don't expect a thunderclap and lightening bolt and instant realization after sewing my kimono into the rakusa :wink:

[Taigu]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Thank you all for contributing and sharing your thoughts,

I would like to say that I understand the resistance some of you may have to sew and wear the robe. I said previously that in our tradition we practice first and understand later. Our Western education trains people to do exactly the opposite. What I invite you to do is to sit with the kesa and see what happens or refrain from turning your viewpoint into an universal truth. What I am also saying is that sitting Zen without the kesa is not Buddha's Zen. Zen and kesa have always been transmitted together. The reading of Den E or Kesa Kudoku in Shobogenzo might shed some light on this very important aspect of our tradition. The kesa is nothing but a piece of cloth and at the same time it is the whole universe, it is fabric and Tatagatha's body. It is a painted cake and a real cake. What brings some people to this understanding is years often years of experience and sometimes struggle.

gassho

Taigu

[BrianD]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

I was recently listening to a podcast about Dogen's take on God, and it seems to me that some people come to Zen Buddhism because they view it as a religion ''sans Dieu", others to enhance their religious practice or have a genuine interest in just Zen and some just as a philosophy or way of life and I think the resistance in sewing or wearing robes strikes terror into the hearts of people who see that as dogma and rebel instinctively . My wife had some horrible experiences with the Catholic Church and sometimes places all religions in the same boat regardless if it is merited.( my interest in Zen is often derided as cultist)
Preconceptions are sometimes very ingrained and hard to shake kinda like the concept of I ,me , mine. I think that if they enable to practitioner to achieve the proper mind frame , no harm no foul.
Gassho

[Shohei]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Though I will say I was not judging the minds or merits of any ones work (what ever that maybe), my own is tough enough. The discussion about tradition vs innovation is more than just robes and sewing them... that topic has come up a few times and so it was on my mind.

So, to all participating, I do humbly apologize for prompting it in that direction as these things do only apply to me, this moment and for the time being. On tradition, I'll be less specific on saying which traditions or innovations are right (or wrong) and instead I would like to say that regarding Innovation vs tradition, lets take the versus out. Tradition and innovation is our practice - welcome to Treeleaf

Gassho
Shohei

[willjohndover]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

The kesa is nothing but a piece of cloth and at the same time it is the whole universe, it is fabric and Tatagatha's body. It is a painted cake and a real cake. What brings some people to this understanding is years often years of experience and sometimes struggle.

gassho

Taigu

Thank you Taigu for posting this. It really brought this whole discussion into perspective for me.

[Martin]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

What I am also saying is that sitting Zen without the kesa is not Buddha's Zen.

Well, if that is so, then Buddha's Zen is less, more limited, than I had thought it. And, since I do not sit with a kesa, it would follow that I would not be sitting zazen, nor would most here.

I am saddened.

Gassho

Martin

[Taigu]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Dear Martin,

We usually make the distinction between lay practice and priest practice.
If you go in the direction of priest practice, then a kesa is needed. If you don't, you are already living in the whole kesa of the universe, as Sawaki Kodo says: there is no world outside the kesa. He means by that that everything as it is is already the kesa, and sentient and non sentient beings do all wear it.
So you are already wearing the kesa, and you feel-think you don't need it. That is perfectly ok. I just would like to reflect that for some people here, there is a different story, another commitment and the light of that commitment, this sewn fabric is Buddha's body. You don't understand it. I tried to explain it. But of course, as you sit in this boundless reality, it is already covering your shoulders.
I wish people would open their mind and accept that what they think is nonsense, can make perfect sense to other people.
Jundo asked me to present this teaching which was Buddha's teaching, Dogen's and all the old guys. If people don't want to hear it, they can skip my posts, not read the kesa chapters in Shobogenzo...
Thank you for your practice and I wish this clarifies what I have been saying all along.
Frankly, I am also tired an a bit sad.

Take care and thank you for the sewing you do in your work and your life

gassho


Taigu

[Myozan Kodo]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

I would like to say that regarding Innovation vs tradition, lets take the versus out. Tradition and innovation is our practice

Well said Shohei. Tradition AND Innovation would be better. It displays a more complex and accurate understanding. Thank you.

As for what Taigu said on the Kesa. He is right: it is indispensible to this tradition we are all part of. The Kesa is part of the transmission from the beginning and will continue to be. It cannot be cut away from this practice. It is integral to it. The Kesa is zazen. So, let's not denigrate it as merely a piece of cloth and that's that.

However, that doesn't mean that zazen without a Kesa/Rakusu is not zazen. In my experience, it is. It's just that the Kesa / Rakusu is a part of our practice that cannot be discarded. It is not something we can throw away in a move to 'modernize' and 'simplify' zazen practice. It is also not something that everyone will sew or wear (for various reasons). But it is the sacred body of the transmission. So, let us show it respect.

And just as importantly, let us practice well and be kind to one another. The whole reason this way is so true is that it sets intellectual debate aside and encounters the living Dharma of reality beyond thought and as it is. I feel a little troubled for starting this thread and seeing conflict emerge. That was not the intention. Let us bow to one another in the true spirit of Zen: brothers and sisters on the path, our own foibles and character traits due a certain respect.

Gassho,
Soen

[Stephanie]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Taigu, people are respectfully asking questions you refuse to answer. Why?

Personally, if in coming to the West, Buddhism loses an "obey first, understand later" mentality, I celebrate it. I do not believe such a mentality is in keeping with the Buddha's original teaching of awakening. Buddha's awakening required him to forgo all forms of obedience to others, and I believe that questioning, alive spirit is what he transmitted to Mahakasyapa and Ananda.

Do I even need to raise the specter of Milgrim's experiments and what they showed about the "obey first, understand later" mentality?

Most people here are not resisting sewing or wearing the robe or rakusu. They are just asking questions, even as they sew or prepare to sew, and especially about your statements that it is most essential next to zazen. There is no band of rebels here, overthrowing and refusing to engage with tradition, just people with alert minds that ask questions--a quality no agent of liberation should denigrate, in my opinion.

[Taigu]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Stephanie,

The proof is in the pudding. I did answer.
People want to practice? There is a price to pay. Not in dollars, euros or Yen.
Much more than you can really fathom.

gassho


Taigu

[Ankai]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

What I am also saying is that sitting Zen without the kesa is not Buddha's Zen.




I am having an extremely difficult time accepting that as truth. could you explain?

[Ankai]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

I wish people would open their mind and accept that what they think is nonsense, can make perfect sense to other people.
Jundo asked me to present this teaching which was Buddha's teaching, Dogen's and all the old guys. If people don't want to hear it, they can skip my posts, not read the kesa chapters in Shobogenzo...


With great respect, that's not the point at all, Taigu. I am not rejecting Kesa. I am asking questions about it, and why it is essential. I get that it is part of our tradition, and I get that it has an important place. But when you say that Zazen without Kesa is "not the Buddha's Zazen," it is coming across as if either Zazen with Kesa is somehow superior, or that Zaxzen without it is "less." Possibly even that Zezen without Kesa isn't "real" practice. Do you understand what I'm getting at? I'm not rejecting what you're saying, I'm trying to get a clear understanding of it. Up until now, "more Zazen" has always been the answer at Treeleaf. It seems to have suddenly become, "more Zazen... and a Rakusu." This is troubling to me. I make this point ands ask these questions with nothing in my heart but respect.

[Hans]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Hello fellow Treeleafers,

I have nothing substantial to add to Shohei's and Taigu's answers, especially since my sewing is so shabby . I can fully understand why certain questions are being asked, however I think one has to remember that Taigu sensei has dedicated decades of his life to the practice and study of the Kesa and has not found it lacking in any way. One should therefore not expect him of all people to present a perspective that says something along the lines of "well, yeah, my view of our particular Soto-lineage is Whatever works best for you" and the kesa is optional in the long run. "

It's like trying to get a Shingon priest to say that all those mantras are not really all that important.

It is exactly "gates" like the kesa, that make one particular lineage distinct from one another. Nothing wrong with that.

I wish the internet was not such a "cold" medium somehow, because the lack of a "voice" in a posting can get us all to interpret things too hastily.

Gassho,

Hans

P.S. And may we pebbles polish each other's understanding.