Tradition versus innovation

[Tb]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Hi.

Sorry for this but i'd like to quote an old fool that always keep on saying "It's all good practice".
And what does that mean in this case?
It means that everything we do has an purpose, and a meaning.
We do certain things because they're abled, we go to places because they're there.
Now in some cases you can't take away an pillar because the whole place will come crumbling down, in others you're encouraged to and in some there are no pillars...
What you make of it is up to you, but it's still all good practice, it's just that you don't always see it.

And to quote another master, yoda...

Do, or do not. There is no try.

And now back to topic.

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Jinyu]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Wow! That's an interesting thread! thank Soen and everyone!

I'll add my two "eurocents" :lol:
In fact what I want to say has already been said by everyone and especially by Taigu and Shohei (two very beautiful posts btw, thank you guys, really!).

I'll make a link with what I said earlier in the precept study thread, in my little point of view, our practice is taking refuge in buddha, dharma, sangha, and receiving the precepts is an actualisation in our daily lifes of this refuge.
I see Buddha, Dharma and Sangha as the living practice of Zazen - Kesa - and Gassho/Bowing(or Precepts pick the one you like :lol: ).

So, in my little actual "understanding" if these three are "truly", faithfully practiced in a sangha... This Sangha is a Zen Sangha.
The incense burning, fancy kolomos, chantings... are an important part of the japanese Zen heritage we received with this fundamental practice of Zazen-Kesa-Gassho/Precepts, but they are not the core of this practice.

So, I don't see them as vital in our practice, but to be really sincere, I don't know what I'll think in the future!
When I first sat zazen, I had the silly idea that a true zazen is only done in kimono, in a Zendo, with zen fellows... I know now that practicing like this is helpfull, it is a beautifull practice and we must try to practice like when it is possible, but this is not the only possible way to practice Zazen.
So maybe, in a year my silly mind will "be sure" of something else, and in two years another silly thing will be add to the idea of "a good" Zen practice, a good Zen Sangha...
As Taigu said: Lets practice first! Enough ideas about how things should or shoud not be will come to our silly minds....

gassho to everyone,
Jinyu
ps: thank you for reading this because I really didn't add anything
pps: I must say I'm glad that stephanie jumped in the discussion because the way she "practices doubt" (means something in English?) is sometimes difficult to me but never fruitless!

[Saijun]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Hello friends,

I've been thinking about this thread, and it occurs to me that perhaps the best course of action is to not consiously change anything; time and culture will most certainly re-create Zen in the same way that it has changed moving from India to China to Japan/Korea/Vietnam. Perhaps if we leave well enough alone, keep practicing our practice, living Buddha, Dharma, Sangha in every moment, "the Mind of the Great Sage of India [will be] intimately transmitted West and East." After all, the only way to ensure correct transmission is to practice correctly. After ten, fifty, one hundred years, what will emerge? I don't claim to know, but without deep, sincere practice, it will not be Buddha Dharma.

Just another thought rambling through this deluded mind.

Much metta,

Perry

[Ankai]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Back when I first started posting here, there were debates and arguments often enough. Unlike this difference of opinion, they were sometimes harsh and bitter. I appreciate that we can discuss without fighting, differ without insult. And, as then, now: the solution is simply, "More Zazen." Lowering my head in defference to wiser minds, off to the Zafu...

[lorax]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

What a wonderful circle this thread has taken. I am glad I sat on my hands and just enjoyed what could have become a very testy discussion. Kevon you expressed my feelings exactly, and Perry, you pulled it all together!

Thanks to you all.

Jim

[Myozan Kodo]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

I’m with Taigu on this: organic change is the key. Just sitting is the core activity. Jeans and a Rakusu are enough. But life is punctuated with births, marriages and deaths. For such occasions, ceremony has a place. Incense, bowing and chanting all enrich our practice and they should not be cast aside. But they have a time and place.

Personally, I sit with the Rakusu every day. I chant and bow. But on occasion, I wear the full Okesa and conduct my practice in a more formal fashion: the Heart Sutra in English, but sometimes in Japanese; full bows, with incense and ceremony. This is part of the expression of the practice and it deserves respect. But it is still extra to sitting Zazen, which is the heart of it all.

The excesses of pretending to be Japanese shouldn’t be indulged in … but at the same time, the Japanese traditions of Zen shouldn’t, I feel, be thrown away. They have so much beauty and expression.

What is needed is a little wisdom and skill in determining when ceremony has a place and when a T-shirt and jeans should be worn. But it is Zazen and the Kesa that Dogen put the emphasis on … so, as Zen people, let’s listen to Dogan. That is the essential heart of the practice. But beyond the heart are the lungs, spleen and kidneys … if you know what I mean.

Deep bows and respect,

Soen

[Ankai]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Jeans and a Rakusu are enough.

I'd say just sitting is enough. My rakusu is in my heart, what I dress this skin bag I live in with is completely secondary.

[Myozan Kodo]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

True. Zazen is the only essential. I sit corrected.
Gassho,
Soen

[Taigu]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Thank you Stephanie for asking, the truth about the kesa can only be known through sewing or sitting. Countless books have been written about this cloth. Empty words.

One day as I was begging in the streets of Kyoto an old man came in front of me and bowed. I could clearly see how detached, pure, totally selfless his bowing was, a simple gassho that brought tears to my eyes as I started to sob feeling completely unworthy of this respect. He dropped a 1000 Yen banknote in my bowl in a gracious and simple gesture and bowed again before vanishing. I was touched to the core, moved. And then I realized that he did not bow in front of ME: I was wearing a nine stripes kesa, he was bowing to the boundless reality it stands for, not to the poor puppet I can be. That little old man taught me more about the kesa that lectures and books. My clumsy sewing teaches me more about the nature of things than the wise words of preachers.

Stephanie, it is an experience and a practice that cannot be described. I understand the resistance that it meets in the West. Shohei describes it very well and he also gives a very good picture of what sewing is like: an humbling experience where you face your shortcomings and problems.

Even if I am only heard by a few of you, let me repeat here that as you look deeply into this practice and experience, the kesa, the begging bowl and just sitting are the three ways Buddhas manifest in this world. You may pick up an choose, take this and reject that in the name of your belief system, because you strongly feel that it doesn't work for you. You may want to bargain with the path, the teacher, dismiss these exotic stuff ...I am afraid you will just being doing spiritual window shopping.

Zazen is sitting body-mind and kesa. Zazen without kesa is good therapy. Kesa in the heart is another illusion.

I recorded this as an answer today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwyq4NoKAKk[/video]]

[Myozan Kodo]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Taigu,
Thank you for your teaching.
Gassho,
Soen

[Ankai]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Please understand, Taigu, that I'm not resisting the idea of the Kesa, and am humbly and joyfully sewing my Rakusu. I simply don't understand the idea of its being necessary. I don't mean that in a "but why do wer have to do this?" sense or anything, and it's hard to express what I'm getting at. I can see the benefit of the act of sewing, the observance of tradition, the meditative and humbling aspects of it, but symbolism and tradition aside, when I'm done, I'll still have a piece of cloth, and the meaning or attachment of it will be those I assign it myself. I don't mean this in some arrogant way... it's a sincere struggle. You say the Kesa is essential, but I have been taught and believe Zazen is the only essential, and I don't understand how the object itself fits in. I am not arguing or debating, just trying to be understood clearly, and to understand. Thanks for being patient.

[Stephanie]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Taigu,

Thank you for your answer.

I appreciate what you are saying about the practice of sewing, and look forward to beginning my rakusu.

I wonder, though, in the case of your experience. For you, the reverence and generosity of the man who responded to your robe was humbling and deeply moving. But to a different mind, the power of the kesa to cause that kind of reaction in others could be treated very differently. As a way to make money, to gain respect and power. I do not ask this merely hypothetically; I have seen it happen. People use the power of tradition to gain and maintain power over others. People who do not respect or understand the tradition in the same way you do. How many monks and teachers have there been who have used their robes to seduce women, demand gestures of respect from others, or accumulate money for personal luxuries?

Is the kesa what is sacred, or is it the mind of the person wearing it and seeing it that determines its value? Is the process of sewing sacred, or is it the experience of the person sewing? If a person sewed their own pair of blue jeans with the same attitude of mind and process of learning we are invited to experience in sewing the rakusu or kesa, would this be less sacred than sewing the rakusu or kesa?

And in your talk... the only thing you said that met with resistance in me was the word "obedience." It is not that obedience in and of itself is a bad thing, but rather, how do we know who to trust with our obedience? Life is short; I am willing to obey and submit to learn from someone who can guide me along the path to awakening; but what if they are leading me to a dead end?

Gassho,

Stephanie

[Martin]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Taigu

I simply do not understand how realisation can depend on what we wear. I cannot understand why, or that, the universe should care.

Taigu, Shohei, sewing the kesa is your practice, pricking your fingers time and time again, being confronted again and again with your impatience and inadequacies.

Today, as I do all week, I helped two warring parties stitch together a settlement, pricking the bubbles of my ego time and time again on their hurt, being confronted again and again with my impatience and inadequacies. You work your work, I mine, and each of us, theirs. I’m not a good Mediator, and perhaps you’re not good sewers, (perhaps you are) but whatever, the kesa is sewed, and the case is settled, and the tea needs to be made. And next week there’s more to sew, and another five cases to be settled.

The Buddha sewed a kesa, and sewing the kesa is the work of the Buddha. The Buddha helped to settle disputes, and helping to settle disputes is the work of the Buddha. I don’t know if it’s recorded that the Buddha made tea, but making tea, too, is the work of the Buddha.

We all work our work, and I cannot understand how stitches in fabric, and stitches in a settlement, nor tea in the pot, if each is done with the mind of zazen, are different, nor how you can judge the mind with which others work their work.

Gassho

Martin

[Ankai]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

We all work our work, and I cannot understand how stitches in fabric, and stitches in a settlement, nor tea in the pot, if each is done with the mind of zazen, are different, nor how you can judge the mind with which others work their work.


Beautifully said.

[Saijun]

Re: Tradition versus innovation

Taigu

I simply do not understand how realisation can depend on what we wear. I cannot understand why, or that, the universe should care.

Taigu, Shohei, sewing the kesa is your practice, pricking your fingers time and time again, being confronted again and again with your impatience and inadequacies.

Today, as I do all week, I helped two warring parties stitch together a settlement, pricking the bubbles of my ego time and time again on their hurt, being confronted again and again with my impatience and inadequacies. You work your work, I mine, and each of us, theirs. I’m not a good Mediator, and perhaps you’re not good sewers, (perhaps you are) but whatever, the kesa is sewed, and the case is settled, and the tea needs to be made. And next week there’s more to sew, and another five cases to be settled.

The Buddha sewed a kesa, and sewing the kesa is the work of the Buddha. The Buddha helped to settle disputes, and helping to settle disputes is the work of the Buddha. I don’t know if it’s recorded that the Buddha made tea, but making tea, too, is the work of the Buddha.

We all work our work, and I cannot understand how stitches in fabric, and stitches in a settlement, nor tea in the pot, if each is done with the mind of zazen, are different, nor how you can judge the mind with which others work their work.

Gassho

Martin

Hello brother Martin,

While I am aware that your post is directed at the Reverend Taigu, I had a thought that may be helpful to share: the Kesa is, if nothing else, something to connect ourselves with generations past. I see it as the story of our own mind, as well as the story of the Dharma--stitch by stitch, we make it our own, slowly coming to understand its simple intricacies.

Also, it is a constant reminder: a constant reminder the Ancestors who passed the Dharma down to us, a constant reminder to be humble and grateful, a constant reminder that all around us is ("a formless field of merit"), and a reminder of our refuge in the Triple Gem ("wrapping ourselves in the Buddha's teaching").

Perhaps (probably) I'm completely incorrect and out of line, but going back to the "tradition vs. innovation" discussion, I think that traditions become traditions for a reason--perhaps one that isn't readily discernible at first glance.

Just my thoughts, feel free to discard them.

Much metta to all,

Perry